Here we go again!

cbxer55 · Jan 20, 2017

JP02XLT said:
The Jeep gave no codes or engine light, just stalled at times and would not start, or might fire right back up you never knew, Any way good luck with your troubleshooting, I know the Jeep was a good week of testing everything under the hood, and chasing your tail gets old.

JP02XLT

The truck was doing that exact thing early last year, and the year before. Would be driving down the highway at 70, and it would just die. Pull over and wait 5 minutes, it would start right back up and not do it again. I traced that problem to a corrupted chip on the computer. Removed the chip and the problem went away. So no chip at the present time.

One night in late 2015, coming home from work at midnight, it died on the freeway 5 miles from home. First time it happened and I had no idea why. Anyhow, I walked home, got my Lightning and drove out to empty all the stuff out, since I expected it to get towed. I tried starting it, and VROOM, it was running. So now I'm 5 miles from home with two running vehicles. Know what I had to do, right? :annoyed:

At least I work close to home. ;-)

AC · Jan 20, 2017

Have you replaced the crankshaft position sensor like as JP02XLT suggested ? (Just curious) while reading the posts and scrolling down I felt like I was reading a horror story and I was just waiting for a post that said you FIXED IT as i went to the next page

I agree with Rearanger on "I would attach a fuel pressure gauge and monitor the pressure at all the points where the engine does or does not start" but i do see how that would be hard to check while driving.

can you always hear the fuel pump whir?
I'm thinking a faulty Inertia Switch (fuel cut off switch)

cbxer55 · Jan 21, 2017

The thing I posted in #16 is fixed, it was a corrupted JET chip on the computer. Once removed the problem went away.

As for what I started this thread about. I can't believe the crank shaft position sensor is at fault when the engine starts and burns off starting fluid. It wouldn't be able to do that if the CKPS was bad. Or any of the others for that matter.

So lets see, starts and burns off starting fluid: Check.
Has fuel pressure at the rail : Check.
Has spark: Check.

But for some reason, intermittently it cranks but won't start. Has to be something fuel related up top after the pressure regulator. Wondering if there is a relay in the box under the hood for the injectors? Because obviously fuel isn't getting past the regulator when it does these failures.

I had intended on trying to figure it out, but it started up yesterday and today.

JP02XLT · Jan 21, 2017

Of course it would fire off on ether, its fuel and your supplying it, You have spark and can test that at the coils, but as soon as you dont supply fuel to it the motor cranks and a no start situation, no fuel is gettting thru the injector, now is it phsical or signal?

Physical is easy, fuel pressure test on the rail, if you have it their, fuel is already past the regulator, the gate is at the injector

There is a fuel relay in the fuse box under the hood, it controls the pump. There is nothing electrical on the fuel system past the pump and the fuel cut off that controls the physical delivery of the fuel, other than the injectors, which are controlled by the crankshaft position senso, it is a timing pulse in sync with the camshaft sensor that triggers the ECU to fire the injector into delivering fuel at the correct time in the cylinder positioning.

If you pull the vacuum line from the regualator and it is dry you do not have a regulator problem of any kind.

While you could have had a bad aftermarket chip, they generally exhibit several other problems as well, but I am still betting on the Crank Position sensor.

If you had an ossciliscope and read the signal on the CKPS you could tell quickly if the signal was diminished at any point.

As for wiggling the wires on the IAC, it will have no effect on starting, you could easily have a connector that now does not make a solid connection, clips get spread out, fatigued loose tension etc. They sell replacement connectors or a trip to the pick a part yard.

JP02XLT

cbxer55 · Jan 21, 2017

Well, I thought about it, and of course you're correct. I forgot the fuel injection is triggered by the crankshaft position sensor. I looked for it, and found it. Looks easy enough to change. Two bolts and the connector. Fortunately it's not behind the flywheel, but outside it. It's pretty dirty, and I did unplug the connector and clean the connections with electrical parts cleaner.

Truck's started four times today, no problem. I am going to go buy a crank position sensor anyways, and swap it out. See what transpires.

Every other sensor on the truck was new in 2009/2010, except that one. The IAC, DPFE, IAT, and CTS are new last year, as are the plugs. The coils were replaced in 2010 when I found out I had coils that should have been recalled, but never got the notice. Plug wires are copper core wires.

Chip is off as it was causing the truck to just stall, suddenly. Idling, rolling down the highway at 70 mph, BAM, it would just cease running. Wouldn't start for five minutes, then it would start and run like nothing happened.

JP02XLT · Jan 21, 2017

Check the wires good for any sharp breaks or bends down by the sensor, anything can happen, We had an issue with a squirrel on the Jeep as well, they chewed fuel pump and transfer case wires, right down to the connector.

Post back when you get the sensor changed and if that solves your issue

JP02XLT

cbxer55 · Jan 21, 2017

Check this out. Years ago, when I was having similar issues, and wanted a quick way to squirt starting fluid into the manifold, I drilled a 1/8 inch hole on the front of the throttle body where the intake tube hooks up. Epoxied a 1/8 o.d. tube into said hole. Then I could just remove a cap, put a red tube on the starting fluid can and squirt it in.

Last week I semi-permanently installed a fuel pressure gauge under the hood. It has a button you push to bleed off pressure, and a hose you put in a bottle to catch the fuel you bleed off. I hooked the hose from the gauge to that tube on the T.B.

Today it's been starting all day. Drove it to dinner, and after, it refused to start. Cranked energetically but wouldn't catch. Popped the hood, pushed that button and hosed a bunch of gas into the manifold. It started, but burned off the gas and died. Next time, I pushed it for longer, got a good shot in there, and when the engine started, pumped the throttle, and VROOM, it started.

Obviously, the sensors are not bad. Cause if they were, it wouldn't have started even though I pumped the throttle. Now, got me wondering if it's TPS related. Maybe the contact at the idle position is starting to wear a bit. The TPS was new in 2010, so it's only 7 years old. But, it's from Vato Zone, so who knows?

Anyhow, at least I know how to get it running when it starts playing the fool.

StrangerRanger · Jan 22, 2017

Hmmm...

Just a thought but I had a similar problem years ago with my 95. It all started after I replaced a fuel filter. Turns out I dislodged some gunk in the fuel lines and they traveled up into the pressure manifold and caused problems. Had to have it cleaned-up and took the opportunity to check the injectors and ended up replacing one.
Which makes me wonder, have you checked your injector connections? Just spitballin but you never know. I had a bad idle problem years ago and it turned out to be a bad connection on the TPS. A little WD-40, snapped it back in and that was 10 years ago.
BTW, If you have any tips on how to get a bit more power out of the 3.0 I posted a question in the 3.0 forum as well.
Good Luck

cbxer55 · Jan 23, 2017

Fuel pump and fuel filter were replaced at the same time. Ran and started fine for over a month before this shit started happenin! As much injector cleaner I run in this truck, I can't believe there is any gunk in the tank at all. I've regularly used Berryman's B-12 for years in this truck. Stuff has Acetone, MEK, Methanol and Toluene as the active ingredients. I wear gloves when opening and pouring it.

Today, wouldn't start at all. Gave it some gas (ether) and it started right up. Idle was kind of rough for a few minutes. Ran like it was only hittin on three cylinders. Once the temperature gauge hit normal operating range, she was purring like a kitten. She revs to the moon and back with no complaints.

I wonder how any of the sensors can be bad if it runs so fine once warmed up? The problem is starting. Stopped to get gas, was there 5 minutes. Wouldn't start, had to hit it with the starting fluid to get it started. Once running, purred like a kitten.

Probably be getting rid of this truck tomorrow. Can't handle this crap no mo. Don't want to have to keep a can of starting fluid on me all the time, NASTY!! :annoyed:

stmitch · Jan 23, 2017

FYI, my TPS occasionally throws fault codes. I've been meaning to replace it, but it's a pain on my supercharger so I dealt with it. It drives normally but once in awhile it would sometimes load up and over fuel just before shutoff, which would result in difficult or no start situations.

If I hold the throttle plate open while starting, to let the engine ingest enough air, it would start immediately. If I let the truck sit for hours, the fuel vapor in the cylinders would dissipate enough that the engine would start normally.

Before you go getting rid of a decent truck, I'd throw another TPS on it. It would be a shame to get rid of a truck you like over a $30 fix. Sounds like the one that's on there is 7 years old, so I'd say it's worth a shot.

cbxer55 · Jan 23, 2017

Just for the hell of it, I'm going to replace the CKPS, CPS and TPS this week.

Seems to me though, it's a cold/hot thing. Or saying it another way, open loop versus closed loop problem. Truck starts right up as long as the temperature on the gauge is showing it to be normal operating range. When the temp on the gauge drops, which it can do quite fast during the winter, the hard starting returns.

Thought about pulling the computer and taking it to my local Ford dealer, see if they can tell me if there's a problem with it.

I just don't know about any sensors. A shot of starting fluid and it's running, and everything is normal after a few minutes of shaky idle. I mean, if the TPS were bad, would it even start on ether? Same for the CKPS and the CPS, if either were bad, would it run after being hit with ether?

Sometimes, I long for the days of carburetors and distributors. No computers or sensors.

cbxer55 · Jan 23, 2017

The latest in this saga.

Got it running, burned a whole can of ether, wouldn't stay running. Ran for about 30 seconds on one shot, responded to throttle while running, just refused to stay running. Still got fuel pressure and spark.

Bought a new crank position sensor, and had to special order a cam position sensor (don't think it's the problem, but what the heck). I'll put the crank sensor in tomorrow and see what happens.

Crank sensor (old one) looks alright, but really dirty on the sensing end. Since it's magnetic in nature, dirty shouldn't matter.

Since it responded to throttle while on the ether, I'm assuming the TPS is still good. But I'll replace it if the CKPS and the CPS don't do the trick.

lil_Blue_Ford · Jan 24, 2017

If you bought the TPS through AutoZone and gave them your phone number for the warranty, just take it back and exchange it, should have a lifetime warranty, which means as long as you own the vehicle.

Sent from my kite using a trebuchet

cbxer55 · Jan 24, 2017

lil_Blue_Ford said:
If you bought the TPS through AutoZone and gave them your phone number for the warranty, just take it back and exchange it, should have a lifetime warranty, which means as long as you own the vehicle.

Sent from my kite using a trebuchet

I'll try that and see. Yes they have my phone number. Not sure it's the problem though, as when it's running, it runs awesome. It's just getting it started when cold.

Put a new crank sensor in it today, the results are mixed. I couldn't get it started at first, burnt off a whole can of starting fluid. Eventually it started though. Just all of the sudden it started firing.

Drove it for 20 miles and parked it. Started five minutes later. Started 15 minutes after that. Almost didn't start after 30 minutes. Which is an improvement over Sunday, when it wouldn't start after five minutes at a gas station getting gas.

So apparently something is happening when it goes from closed loop to open loop, I.e. cools down. May be the PCM is bad. Wish there was a way to tell.

Have a new cam sensor coming Friday. Will see what that does.

Talked to an automotive shop, and he is completely clueless as to what it could be. Says he's never heard of that problem before.

Going to change the plugs tomorrow. They were new in April, but this truck has had a tendency to burn out the center electrodes on the passenger side. The plugs are E-3's. Going to replace them with Auto Lite double platinums once again, they seem to last the longest.

lil_Blue_Ford · Jan 24, 2017

Easy way to try the PCM would be if you knew someone local with the same engine/transmission combination and a similar vintage

Sent from my kite using a trebuchet

Here we go again!

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