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Spark knock or bad lifter


86ranger4x4owner

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I have a 1988 ford ranger and while in overdrive going up a hill it makes a pinging or metal to metal kind of noise until it downshifts and then it goes away. Could this be a bad lifter or spark knock? It runs fine at idle and going down the road just when going up a hill it does this.
 


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just pinging because youre in too high of a gear/low of an rpm. if i try to go up a hill in 4th under 1500 rpm i get the same thing if i keep trying to push it, so i just down shit to 3rd and fine.
assuming youre saying, until it downshifts, you have an automatic. so i guess you cant manually down shift though. but thats what it sounds like to me.

maybe excessive to say maybe timing is too advanced, which can cause similar things but if you havnt ever messed with it. most likely not.
 

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Sound like fuel ping and it should not be doing it. Pinging can break a piston if it is bad enough.
Check your base timing. Google how to do it.
 

86ranger4x4owner

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Could a misfire cause this? I did run some 93 octane gas and it went away completely another thing is feels like it has no power when it's pinging. It does have slight misfire and I guess I need to start there and then check timing.
 

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It is/was pre-detonation, i.e. pinging/knocking

When you start to load an engine by accelerating or going uphill, the cylinders start to heat up, many notice temp gauge going up a bit while going up a long grade, very normal because............cylinders are running hotter.

Octane is a self ignition heat rating for fuel, 87 octane will self ignite at a lower temperature than 89 octane, which will self ignite and a lower temp than 91 octane, and so on.......

So as the cylinder temp rises it can reach a point where 87 octane will self ignite in the cylinder just before spark plug fires, pre-ignition, this can happen before piston reaches TDC so it actually slows the crank down instead of adding to it's spin, the no power thing.
The noise is from two or more ignition points in the one cylinder, the explosive wave fronts meet and make that metallic sound.

Diesel engines make similar noise and for the same reason, diesels don't use spark for ignition, it just uses heat, heat from very high compression, when the air/fuel mix enters the cylinder and is compressed, it reaches it's self ignition point, but there may be two or more ignition points, so explosive wave fronts meet and you hear the "ping".
However diesel engines are built very heavy duty because of the compression needed so the pinging is not "good" but a little won't hurt the engine.

OK back to gasoline, so pre-ignition is from cylinders heating up, and this pinging creates even more heat, so once it starts it will continue until you reduce the load, by backing off the gas or moving RPM to a better torque range, if your engine generates the best torque at 2,700rpms and you are lugging the engine uphill at 2,100rpms then it will heat up more, at 2,700rpm it doesn't have to work as hard so will cool a bit.

Then there are dirty injectors, injectors get dirty, some more than others, if an injector is passing a little less fuel than the others then that cylinder will have a leaner air/fuel mix.
Lean mix runs hotter, and it is also easier to self-ignite, so double whammy.
Run some injector cleaner in the gas tank once a year.

When cylinders get hotter NOx emissions go up, that's why EGR(exhaust gas recirculation) systems were added, adding exhaust to the intake when engine is under load causes a slower burn in the cylinders and this lowers the cylinder temp so less NOx is generated.
And since cylinder temps are lower.................chance of pinging is greatly reduced.
So if you have an EGR system make sure it is working.

Since you got no pinging on 93 octane then you can be sure it was "pinging" you were hearing.
if pinging seemed like just a few cylinders then for sure run that injector cleaner sooner than later.
 
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86ranger4x4owner

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It is/was pre-detonation, i.e. pinging/knocking

When you start to load an engine by accelerating or going uphill, the cylinders start to heat up, many notice temp gauge going up a bit while going up a long grade, very normal because............cylinders are running hotter.

Octane is a self ignition heat rating for fuel, 87 octane will self ignite at a lower temperature than 89 octane, which will self ignite and a lower temp than 91 octane, and so on.......

So as the cylinder temp rises it can reach a point where 87 octane will self ignite in the cylinder just before spark plug fires, pre-ignition, this can happen before piston reaches TDC so it actually slows the crank down instead of adding to it's spin, the no power thing.
The noise is from two or more ignition points in the one cylinder, the explosive wave fronts meet and make that metallic sound.

Diesel engines make similar noise and for the same reason, diesels don't use spark for ignition, it just uses heat, heat from very high compression, when the air/fuel mix enters the cylinder and is compressed, it reaches it's self ignition point, but there may be two or more ignition points, so explosive wave fronts meet and you hear the "ping".
However diesel engines are built very heavy duty because of the compression needed so the pinging is not "good" but a little won't hurt the engine.

OK back to gasoline, so pre-ignition is from cylinders heating up, and this pinging creates even more heat, so once it starts it will continue until you reduce the load, by backing off the gas or moving RPM to a better torque range, if your engine generates the best torque at 2,700rpms and you are lugging the engine uphill at 2,100rpms then it will heat up more, at 2,700rpm it doesn't have to work as hard so will cool a bit.

Then there are dirty injectors, injectors get dirty, some more than others, if an injector is passing a little less fuel than the others then that cylinder will have a leaner air/fuel mix.
Lean mix runs hotter, and it is also easier to self-ignite, so double whammy.
Run some injector cleaner in the gas tank once a year.

When cylinders get hotter NOx emissions go up, that's why EGR(exhaust gas recirculation) systems were added, adding exhaust to the intake when engine is under load causes a slower burn in the cylinders and this lowers the cylinder temp so less NOx is generated.
And since cylinder temps are lower.................chance of pinging is greatly reduced.
So if you have an EGR system make sure it is working.

Since you got no pinging on 93 octane then you can be sure it was "pinging" you were hearing.
if pinging seemed like just a few cylinders then for sure run that injector cleaner sooner than later.
So the engine is either getting to hot or it could be a slow injector? This truck has no egr system I've done research and the Haynes manual says 88 and newer don't have it The misfire at idle should have no influence on the pinging then right?
 
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All cylinders get hot when under load, too hot would cause all cylinders to ping.

Dirty injector isn't "slow" just doesn't spray fuel as efficiently or if restricted doesn't spray enough fuel.
If tip is dirty then fuel drips out, so alot ends up on the inside of the intake instead of in the cylinder, and this can make fuel mix lean.
And it could also cause low RPM misfire, although that is more likely to be spark plug or wire.

It would be worth while to pull the plugs and look at each as it comes out, if there is a cylinder consistently misfiring you will see it when comparing spark plugs, so keep track of which one comes from which cylinder.

Because the fuel and oxygen in that cylinder is not being burned during the misfire, some of the fuel remains behind and can form carbon coating on piston, head and valves, also spark plugs.
And most of the oxygen is pushed out in to the exhaust manifold, and it is detected by the O2 sensor, O2 sensor reads oxygen levels in exhaust, too little oxygen means computer is adding too much fuel, too much oxygen mean computer is not adding enough fuel.
So when O2 sensor "sees" the misfires unburned oxygen computer increases fuel on that bank of the engine.
Which causes more carbon build up.
When misfire goes away oxygen level in exhaust drops to normal and fuel mix returns to normal.

Carbon build up creates "hot spots" in a cylinder, the coating doesn't cool like bare metal does with coolant flowing behind it.
So when under load and cylinder heats up cylinders with carbon build up are more likely to ping as the hot carbon ignites the fuel before spark plug does.
 
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86ranger4x4owner

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All cylinders get hot when under load, too hot would cause all cylinders to ping.

Dirty injector isn't "slow" just doesn't spray fuel as efficiently or if restricted doesn't spray enough fuel.
If tip is dirty then fuel drips out, so alot ends up on the inside of the intake instead of in the cylinder, and this can make fuel mix lean.
And it could also cause low RPM misfire, although that is more likely to be spark plug or wire.

It would be worth while to pull the plugs and look at each as it comes out, if there is a cylinder consistently misfiring you will see it when comparing spark plugs, so keep track of which one comes from which cylinder.

Because the fuel and oxygen in that cylinder is not being burned during the misfire, some of the fuel remains behind and can form carbon coating on piston, head and valves, also spark plugs.
And most of the oxygen is pushed out in to the exhaust manifold, and it is detected by the O2 sensor, O2 sensor reads oxygen levels in exhaust, too little oxygen means computer is adding too much fuel, too much oxygen mean computer is not adding enough fuel.
So when O2 sensor "sees" the misfires unburned oxygen computer increases fuel on that bank of the engine.
Which causes more carbon build up.
When misfire goes away oxygen level in exhaust drops to normal and fuel mix returns to normal.

Carbon build up creates "hot spots" in a cylinder, the coating doesn't cool like bare metal does with coolant flowing behind it.
So when under load and cylinder heats up cylinders with carbon build up are more likely to ping as the hot carbon ignites the fuel before spark plug does.
So I need to pull the spark plugs and also check the wires? And if there good it's probably a fuel injector clogged? What about the Iac valve? I know it's going bad because it idles high sometimes and I cleaned it and it helped but could that be throwing the fuel mixture off causing pinging?
 

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No on the IAC valve as far as mixture.
 

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I went ahead and changed the plugs they looked bad. Should I try some fuel injector cleaner or what?
 

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Yes, fuel injector cleaner once a year in the gas tank, I like Seafoam but I think any are fine to use
 

86ranger4x4owner

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I went and got a can of seafoam and did half a can in tank and half in brake booster hose. I still have the misfire and I can't tell about the pinging because of the misfire. The misfire is at idle and up to 1500 rpms then smooths out over 1500 rpms. It might not be a misfire but it feels like it to me. What could cause this? It as new plugs and I checked them again after seafaoming and there still good. I checked the cap and rotor button and they seem to be good. I'm guessing a bad spark plug wire. Any ideas?
 

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The older Ford spark plug wires should read less than 7,000 ohms per foot.

But also check the boots at the spark plugs they crack and cause spark to arc to metal engine reducing spark in the cylinder.
Also if you can look at the engine while running at night, and use a spray bottle with water to spray wires, look for arcing near where they pass valve covers or...?? any metal part.
 

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The older Ford spark plug wires should read less than 7,000 ohms per foot.

But also check the boots at the spark plugs they crack and cause spark to arc to metal engine reducing spark in the cylinder.
Also if you can look at the engine while running at night, and use a spray bottle with water to spray wires, look for arcing near where they pass valve covers or...?? any metal part.
I did the spray bottle trick last night didn't see anything. I'll test the ohms next. Would a misfire be through out the whole RPM range or could it be like this at just 1500 rpms and below?
 

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If spark plug, or fuel injector, or compression was bad then yes it would misfire at any RPM.

But if any one of those 3 is "partially" working then it may only effect either low or high RPM range.

One thing you can test to take it off the table is compression, outside of the vulcan 3.0l valve seat issue compression doesn't vary it isn't a hit or miss thing, you either have good compression or you don't.
All spark plugs removed
Test 1 cylinder at a time
Crank engine so you hear 4 or 5 "compression hits"
Write done results for each cylinder

With a V6 you will have 6 results, don't use the highest or lowest result, add up the 4 middle pressures and then divide that number by 4, that will be your average compression.
If the lowest or highest is more than 10% away from the average then you found a problem.

2.9l is 9.0:1 compression ratio so new you would expect 165psi, older could be as low as 155psi.
This also depends on crank speed, so battery condition.

But if average was 160psi then 10% would be 16psi and if you have 1 cylinder with 135psi then that cylinder could be misfiring at lower RPMs.
And it might be firing but not adding as much power to the crank speed so it feels like a misfire in that respect.
Compression is the rubberband, the tighter you wind it the more power is released.
High compression engines have more power because "the rubberband" is wound up tighter.
So a cylinder with 160psi compression will produce more power than a cylinder with 135psi

Could be a vacuum leak in the lower intake manifold on 1 cylinder, so that cylinder is getting too much air at lower RPMs and not firing until more fuel is added at higher RPMs.

Bad spark plug wire would be a miss at any RPM but higher resistance wire might work at higher RPM.
 

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