Transmission Exchange possible and clutch issues came back hard!

Hiya Campers.

Still having headaches with our 1995 Explorer Sport with the Standard M50D-R1/

Ran it for a few weeks without any really horrific problems with the shifting/clutch issues we did have after changing the master/line and bleeding the snot out of it.

And then it started back having issues in spades! Same ol' problem. No reverse unless you shut the engine off and shift it...then start the engine to back up.

We pulled the master for the 2nd time and bleed it out. Tons of air bubbles!! (okay, several dozen....) And I know we completely bleed the air out the first time when we replaced it, as the clutch was fully disengaging for a couple of weeks. Somehow additional air managed to get into the 'sealed' system. That and when the clutch starts to engage, it's when the pedal is just off the floor. I know that's an issue, because the truck has the factory floor mats and carpeting installed--There's a cut-out from the wear of the clutch pedal in the carpet from how hard the last owner (and myself) have had to stand on the pedal to get it fully released.


I did some research and it seems the reverse gear is supposed to be done with a synchro ring. If I'm wrong? feel free to correct me. But that's what a lot of the online sources are stating. I believe sense reverse is gear grinding when the air pockets start sneaking into things--that synchro ring likely is gone/worn out. Judging by how much of a PITA first and second gears are? (mainly first....) I'd say that synchro ring is also likely worn badly.

The transmission will be coming out in about a months time. That's so I can get the $$ for a new flywheel (which I think during the times the clutch has been replaced- Was likely machined to far and that's causing the clutch pedal to be extra quirky. That would pull the clutch assembly forward, and if bad enough, could cause the slave cylinder to not extend as far as needed to fully release--unless your foot is through the floorboards.)

So new flywheel, pressure plate, pilot bearing, clutch, slave..etc.... RockAuto has some decent pricing on those parts, should be fairly simple to obtain.

The transmission itself is worn.. I did find what I think year-wise is a 2001++ Explorer 4 door with the 4wd and the 4.0 overhead cam engine. Interesting find at the pick and pull yard. But the interchange catalog stated "no go" for swapping. The transfer case was already removed. Cost of a trans is about $120 with core...

Question: Has anyone removed a 4.0 M5OD-R1 from the OHV engine..and swapped it out for a newer one that used the overhead cam 4.0 engine of the early 2000's? And if so- Any issues or problems noted?

I'm on the fence as how much to do with this. Clutch assembly and associated parts I'll obtain when the $ becomes available. It sucks that the system managed to ingest additional air into the sealed system. I'm still clueless as where air could be getting introduced, as we have zero leaks at the bell housing/slave/master/lines. Dry as a popcorn fart!

When I found that newer Explorer with a 4.0 Over head cam engine with a manual 4 wheel drive? I was smiling a lot!! Until the interchange guide stated up to 1997 would work. Not sure if I should spend the $$ and pull that one out of the yard or not.

Ideas welcome!

S-

You can swap M5OD-R1 with M5OD-R1HD.
4.0l OHV or SOHC had same bolt pattern

SOHC block had 1 extra trans bolt, which is what the "HD" at the end was for, the shifter arm in cab is different so get that with the HD trans,

Swap is here: http://www.therangerstation.com/Magazine/January2011/M5OD-R1HD_swap.shtml

Wondering if the clutch pedal setup is causing an issue pushing master off center or......???
What you describe is certainly not normal or a known issue that I can recall

RonD said:

You can swap M5OD-R1 with M5OD-R1HD.
4.0l OHV or SOHC had same bolt pattern

SOHC block had 1 extra trans bolt, which is what the "HD" at the end was for, the shifter arm in cab is different so get that with the HD trans,

Swap is here: http://www.therangerstation.com/Magazine/January2011/M5OD-R1HD_swap.shtml

Wondering if the clutch pedal setup is causing an issue pushing master off center or......???
What you describe is certainly not normal or a known issue that I can recall

Click to expand...

I had the wife nail the pedal with the clutch line disconnected while I watched the 'action' under the dash.

Smooth and nothing distorted under her weight. I wanted to do it with the line disconnected at the slave to ensure max pressures up on top to see if something was bending.

My gut feeling is that the air issue? Likely the slave. I vacuum bleed out the entire system after installing the 'bench' bleed master/line. I can safely say there was zero air in that. However the fluid (only about 3-4weeks old) was already turning black with odd black flacks in the new DOT-3.

Sense I'll be pulling it out anyway? Might as well replace the slave when I do the clutch.

As for the pedal. The PO stated he changed the clutch about 10k ago before he took it off the road. (claimed to drive it a few times a month to keep the rust off the brakes and such....I'm calling B/S on that..)

With 235k on the clock. I'm thinking the clutch probably got changed at least 2 times. If he had the flywheel turned each time- That moves the entire assembly forward slightly. If the shop wasn't careful, I'm sure they over machined it and it's really forward now! That might explain the lower then it should be pedal. (That or the guy didn't know what the hell he was doing, and made a bigger mess)

The fluid in the M50D was changed when I brought it home. I remember remarking how 'gray/tan' the fluid is. Almost like someone poured in a jar of graphite. I get the feeling that was the syncro's bring grounded off....

I'll weigh the options over the next few weeks. I'll need to not do anything until I get my expense check paid (takes a couple of weeks) and store incentive for the quarter. That's paying for all this... Plus timing belt/waterpump/tensioner/2 tires..on the wife's VW Beetle. (It's in need of maintenance. Nothing blowing up yet...but it's an interference engine and the timing belt is pushing 154k...and it was last changed at 80k. The 80k mark to change is coming very quick....)


Thanks for the response!! I'll see what the $$ does. I'd love to get the newer one installed, but I also might wind up driving the current one and just getting used to not having 'great' synchro action....

S-

I remember reading something similar recently, about the discoloration.

It was from the Master hose, it was deteriorating and expanding under pressure giving less travel for slave and also black flecks/color in fluid.
Yours is new so not likely but thought I would mention it

If pedal is low when released then check the bushing for the push rod as well, and can you lift it higher, indicating and issue with pivot point.


And yes, M5ODs have full synchro on all 6 gears, so reverse as well.

I was in my local mom + pop parts place the other day and noticed a bunch of different thickness and makes of crank to flywheel "bushings' [can't think of the correct term]. They would move the flywheel away from the crank by .010 or .050. I believe they are meant for bringing the flywheel back to the proper place after turning?

alwaysFlOoReD said:

I was in my local mom + pop parts place the other day and noticed a bunch of different thickness and makes of crank to flywheel "bushings' [can't think of the correct term]. They would move the flywheel away from the crank by .010 or .050. I believe they are meant for bringing the flywheel back to the proper place after turning?

Click to expand...

That makes a lot of sense. But considering I am not 100% sure if they over cut the flywheel- I'm just planning on replacement at this point. The last guy that 'worked' on this thing was simply put a "hack" and it's highly likely it was machined incorrectly.

Ron:

The hose from the clutch to slave isn't a new one. It was on the one I pulled at the pick and pull. That being said: I had the wife also stand on the clutch (she's only 110lbs) and I examined the entire line for any signs of problems. She also pressed it several times. Nothing presented itself. This was also done with the line unhook from the slave for max pressure. I'm planning on full replacement with all new parts. FWIW? The used one had about 100k less on the clock then the one removed. But it will be changed out.

Trying to budget in everything is a bit of a challenge. $118 for the whole deal for just the clutch slave/master/line pre bled. Add the clutch kit and flywheel..... This is becoming like that old movie with Tom Hanks "The Money Pit".

S-

Make sure to use a self adjusting pressure plate or at least reset the old one, need a hydraulic press for that

RonD said:

Make sure to use a self adjusting pressure plate or at least reset the old one, need a hydraulic press for that

Click to expand...

That's the problem I'm having. I've not done a clutch job itself before (I've had a wholeeeeeeeeeeeeeee bunch of auto trans in and out and repaired...etc.. Never had an issue where I needed to do a clutch job. Must be I'm gifted <G>)


I see a few on RockAuto that listed the 'non self adjuster'.

AMS AUTOMOTIVE 07096NB Non Self-Adjusting Cover PREMIUM KIT WITHOUT BEARING

AMS AUTOMOTIVE 07096 Non Self-Adjusting Cover; 10.000" X 1.000" X 23T Flywheel Spec: FLAT

Click to expand...

I'm hopeful that they list the ones that are not self adjust...and the ones not listed are self adjusting. Just really want to resolve this one for good!

Frustration sets in when you want to drive and enjoy the truck--and maybe do some cosmetic upgrades and such...and not mess around with a lot of issues that really drag a person down.

S-

The regular or non-self-adjusting are what were used when slave or linkage was on the outside of the bell housing, so you could adjust them over the life of the clutch disc.

Self-adjusting actually do a better job since they are constantly adjusting over the life of the disc so you don't get the slipping of the clutch disc, causing more wear, before you climbed under the truck to adjust it yourself

But with the slave inside the bell housing there was no other option in any case.

Self-adjusting pressure plates will have 3 or 4 springs around the center of the plate where the fingers are, these springs will be compressed on new pressure plate.
As the clutch disc wears down the plate moves closer and closer to the flywheel, springs keep it from moving back, so clutch pedal engage/disengage stays at the same place on the pedal though out the life of the clutch disc

RonD said:

The regular or non-self-adjusting are what were used when slave or linkage was on the outside of the bell housing, so you could adjust them over the life of the clutch disc.

Self-adjusting actually do a better job since they are constantly adjusting over the life of the disc so you don't get the slipping of the clutch disc, causing more wear, before you climbed under the truck to adjust it yourself

But with the slave inside the bell housing there was no other option in any case.

Click to expand...

Well they could save some confusing moments if they would stick with one or the other! I just hope the ones that are not labeled "non adjustable" are the self adjusting ones LOL. It's taxing my tiny brain a bit.

S-

I added to post above so you can see the difference when looking at pressure plates, the springs

RonD said:

I added to post above so you can see the difference when looking at pressure plates, the springs

Click to expand...

That's helpful!

I just hope when I order off the Rock Auto site they have accurate pictures of the pressure plates. They've always treated me 100% and I've used them for years... So they should be accurate.

S-

Interesting drive yesterday.

Had to take the Explorer to work for a large package drop off. Made it to the mall I work out of great...until I got to the traffic lights... Hard into 1st again. And I could not get it into reverse to park. I had to shut the engine off, shift into reverse...and then back into the spot.


I'm on the fence. Need some sage advice. I have a chance tomorrow (I'm taking the Saturday off to figure this out). There's a chance the M50D out of the 1998 Explorer might still be there. (wife reminded me of the correct year for the one in the pick and pull yard). The M50D from the yard is an unknown. I'm fairly sure either the slave was leaking, or the front seal. It had fluid under if memory serves... Which isn't that big of a deal, as the transmission would be out. So replacement of the shaft seals is possible. Along with the 3 plugs on the top.

Normally I like to pull stuff apart, do a list... My family is going to let me use their cement slab on their front area. But I do not have a lot of time. (maybe a few days before my step father starts being a PITA)

Does purchase of the M50D at the yard, prep it..and assembly all the parts. Then install as a direct swap make sense? Or bite the bullet and see if the one in the Explorer is fixable. I know the synco's are worn badly in the current one. Reverse (even when the clutch is 100%) is a pain to get into gear. First gear at times slips in like butter....and then super hard at other times.

So open one can of worms...or spend $120 on another possible can of worms...

S-

Stopped down at the picky pull. The replacement looks to be out of a 1998 Explorer 4dr 4wd.

Is there any easier way to get the flippen starter bolts out? I've got wrenchs, swivels, etc... The one we pulled it out of? Fought up tooth and nail. Got the lower bolt out, the upper bolt? Actually wound up snapping the starter mount for the upper. Pulled it back and down a bit. And of course the left over ear is stuck to the bolt...with the spacer.

It finally came out.....

Inside the bell housing soaked in oil and anti freeze. Me thinks I know why this Explorer made it to the nackers yard.

Inspection of the flywheel, pressure plate and clutch disc: LUK brand. Pressure plate had 2 score marks and of course, 2 matching score marks on the flywheel.

I grabbed the upper bellows/shifter handle as well. Next project will be cleaning the bell housing and transmission housing with brake cleaner and giving it a good bath. I figured the input shaft seal was leaking, but after seeing all the anti freeze and engine oil in the bell housing- Pretty safe bet the leaks where all engine.

In a few weeks I'll spring for the slave and a few weeks after that the clutch kit. Anyone have a good recommendation for a solid clutch kit? The LUK branded one that came out didn't look that fantastic....

Keeping in mind this will be now a M50D-R1 out of a 1998 Explorer. All going into a 1995 M50D-R1

Thanks!

S-

Tedybear said:

Stopped down at the picky pull. The replacement looks to be out of a 1998 Explorer 4dr 4wd.

Is there any easier way to get the flippen starter bolts out? I've got wrenchs, swivels, etc... The one we pulled it out of? Fought up tooth and nail. Got the lower bolt out, the upper bolt? Actually wound up snapping the starter mount for the upper. Pulled it back and down a bit. And of course the left over ear is stuck to the bolt...with the spacer.

It finally came out.....

Inside the bell housing soaked in oil and anti freeze. Me thinks I know why this Explorer made it to the nackers yard.

Inspection of the flywheel, pressure plate and clutch disc: LUK brand. Pressure plate had 2 score marks and of course, 2 matching score marks on the flywheel.

I grabbed the upper bellows/shifter handle as well. Next project will be cleaning the bell housing and transmission housing with brake cleaner and giving it a good bath. I figured the input shaft seal was leaking, but after seeing all the anti freeze and engine oil in the bell housing- Pretty safe bet the leaks where all engine.

In a few weeks I'll spring for the slave and a few weeks after that the clutch kit. Anyone have a good recommendation for a solid clutch kit? The LUK branded one that came out didn't look that fantastic....

Keeping in mind this will be now a M50D-R1 out of a 1998 Explorer. All going into a 1995 M50D-R1

Thanks!

S-

Click to expand...

Short lived success. Mod's can feel free to bump this over to the Transmission area. As this might take a while to sort out.


Did some checks on my 'prize' this morning.

Output shaft has almost no play. Smooth as silk.
Input shaft is/was a total mess. Play 'in/out' was fair.

I grabbed the input shaft and could wiggle it up/down/left/right/circular/etc... about 1/4"+ in each direction.

I gave it a spin, and all I could hear (it was not in gear) Nothing but bearing rumble. Made the rear wheel bearing on our VW that went bad seem tame.

It was returned to the pick and pull this morning for a full refund. I'll not spend over $100 for a "Good Used" transmission, only to have to pull the input shaft and wind up replacing bearing(s). I'd rather tear mine apart which I already own, and if it needs an input bearing? I just buy the bearing and call it a day.

Going back to sq. 1. Going to take my time, pull it apart...replace the clutch, slave, pilot bearing... And see how that goes. I know mine has worn out sync gears. But that one from the yard was full of potential pitfalls. Input shaft bearing being that loose? Kinda tells me this transmission likely wasn't being treated that nice. (With the score marks on the flywheel and pressure plate..confirms that)

S-