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2004 5.4 rough idle and rod knock


DFracing

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Hey guys been a while since I've been on here, long since sold my ranger however this is the only place I've ever gotten decent advice about vehicles on the web. If any of you know anything about 5.4's that would be awesome.

I recently purchased a 2004 f150 with the 5.4
Developed a rough idle not long after purchasing and a slight rod knock after changing the oil.

Since purchased I've changed the spark plugs, replace the fuel pump driver module and cleaned the throttle body and maf. I cant seem to shake the shaky motor. The rod knock worries me a little but a truck with 130k wont sound perfect. I've done a lot of research into this and cannot find a definitive answer. I just hope the rod knock isn't tied to the rough idle.
 


alwaysFlOoReD

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I owned a 2004 f150 with the 5.4/auto. I bought it knowing there was a problem with poor running at idle. Found paperwork indicating a mech figured it was cam phasers. I found out that cam phasers are a common problem, there is a seal that disintegrates and the phasers don't get enough oil to operate properly. I decided to use heavier weight oil and that cured the problem for a couple years. I got about 40,000 more kilometers out of the truck. I sold it for the same as what I paid to a diesel mechanic and he confirmed the cam phasers were the cause of the problems. I started out mixing 5w/20 with 10w/30. Eventually I was using 100% 10w/40 before it finally got bad enough to retire it. I would suspect you may have the same problem. Does it seem to run fine when cold? If so that would indicate to me that oil viscosity may be a temp fix.
 

DFracing

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yes the truck runs perfectly when cold. but this really bums me out now. i bought this truck in hopes it would be reliable. At first i didnt beleive it was the phaser because it was a knock not a tick. is this something that i should drain the 5-20 out now and put in heavier weight and hope it lasts until i can get something else or afford to fix it?
 
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alwaysFlOoReD

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It could be that there is more than one thing wrong with it. IIRC it was a noisy engine to begin with, so the knock may be nothing to be concerned about. It sucks. For the price of an oil change I'd try a synthetic 10w/30, maybe even 10w/40. Your gas mileage will go down with the thicker oil as there is more engine drag, but it's cheaper than a new truck and gives you time to save for a repair. I was quoted something like 37 hours to re and re the motor, never mind the repair. Apparently the engine drops out the bottom. :dunno: I decided to drive mine till it dropped and spend the money saved on a different truck. I'm driving a 2004 plain jane heritage f150 with the 4.6/auto now. Not as much power but the price was right. The 5.4 was a lariat, I miss the heated seats and some of the bling.
 

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The bottom end is coming apart. You need an engine. This is not pessimism, this is not an over-reaction, this is not a guess. This is based off 6 years of replacing these engines for this exact set of symptoms. The miles on those engines ranged from 55K to 185K. The last one I did had 89K.

The knock is due to excessive bearing clearance on the mains. The poor idle is due to the phasers not getting enough oil pressure to work properly. This makes the two issues related.

Frankly the 5.4 3-valve is junk. It is easily one of the worst engines Ford has ever made, and by far the worst one in the last 20 years.

They have issues with the bottom end, the cam phasers, the exhaust manifolds, the spark plugs, the fuel injectors, the MAF, and the coils. Oh, and if the one heater hose develops a leak it will make the the engine miss because it will drip on the #2 coil.
 

85_Ranger4x4

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Rod knock sounds are usually the phasers rather than the rods. Fix the phasers and the noise will go away.

Thicker oil might be somewhat of a bandaid but the cam bearings will suffer.

It is rare for the rest of the engine to have much of a problem.
 

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The bottom end is coming apart. You need an engine. This is not pessimism, this is not an over-reaction, this is not a guess. This is based off 6 years of replacing these engines for this exact set of symptoms. The miles on those engines ranged from 55K to 185K. The last one I did had 89K.

The knock is due to excessive bearing clearance on the mains. The poor idle is due to the phasers not getting enough oil pressure to work properly. This makes the two issues related.

Frankly the 5.4 3-valve is junk. It is easily one of the worst engines Ford has ever made, and by far the worst one in the last 20 years.

They have issues with the bottom end, the cam phasers, the exhaust manifolds, the spark plugs, the fuel injectors, the MAF, and the coils. Oh, and if the one heater hose develops a leak it will make the the engine miss because it will drip on the #2 coil.
Don't hold back tell him what you really think :)


Yes, ^^ +1
Bummer, but most likely reason for the symptoms described.
And yes thicker oil quiets bearing noises, just like turning up the Radio does, doesn't fix anything though.
 

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Rod knock sounds are usually the phasers rather than the rods. Fix the phasers and the noise will go away.

Thicker oil might be somewhat of a bandaid but the cam bearings will suffer.

It is rare for the rest of the engine to have much of a problem.
3:1 phasers to bottom end issue IME.

Don't hold back tell him what you really think :)


Yes, ^^ +1
Bummer, but most likely reason for the symptoms described.
And yes thicker oil quiets bearing noises, just like turning up the Radio does, doesn't fix anything though.
Since I haven't heard the noise for myself I would recommend one or two tests before condemning the engine.

First, pour the oil filter through a coffee filter, cut it open, look for sparkly stuff.

Second, if you have access to a dial indicator, check end play on the crank.
 

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i ran half a can of sea foam for 15 miles in the motor then changed the oil. i ran a magnets through it and checked the drain plug, no excessive metal shavings.problem disappears above 1000 rpms, knock goes away and truck runs fine. i really dont believe that the bottom end is coming apart. my main question is should i drain the 5-20 out asap get some heavier weight synth in there and changed the vct solenoids. or not mess with it.
 

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i ran half a can of sea foam for 15 miles in the motor then changed the oil. i ran a magnets through it and checked the drain plug, no excessive metal shavings.problem disappears above 1000 rpms, knock goes away and truck runs fine. i really dont believe that the bottom end is coming apart. my main question is should i drain the 5-20 out asap get some heavier weight synth in there and changed the vct solenoids. or not mess with it.
If the "rod knock" goes away at a higher RPM then it ain't a rod knock! This I promise you!
 

85_Ranger4x4

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i ran half a can of sea foam for 15 miles in the motor then changed the oil. i ran a magnets through it and checked the drain plug, no excessive metal shavings.problem disappears above 1000 rpms, knock goes away and truck runs fine. i really dont believe that the bottom end is coming apart. my main question is should i drain the 5-20 out asap get some heavier weight synth in there and changed the vct solenoids. or not mess with it.
Thicker oil will cause more problems than it will hide (not fix)

You need to pull the timing cover off to change parts. That is the sucky part about it, it is beyond a magic in a can fix. :dntknw:

Google around, the TSB and people fixing it should be everywhere.
 

alwaysFlOoReD

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All I can give is my opinion. I worked at a pipeline company with their own mechanics. They used Rotella synthetic 10w/40 in all their vehicles, even the brand new ones that I picked up from ford. They know more than me so I followed their lead in that I didn't worry about the thicker oil. That said it doesn't mean its the right thing to do, pipeline companies generally don't care too much about how long things last as long as there is no downtime. Now in my case I had no place to do repairs and using thicker oil allowed me to save money for a different truck. And that's what I was able to do. If I had a place I probably would have tried to fix it.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
 

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Not sure if you solved your issue, OP, but it sounds very similar to the problem I was having with my recently-acquired 2008 F-150.

The first thing everyone points a finger at with these 5.4 engines is the cam phasers. It's always the cam phasers, you need to replace your cam phasers, your cam phasers are bad, etc. etc. They definitely have gotten a bad rep because of the cam phaser issues, but that can't always be the problem. My truck had fairly low miles too (114,000 Km), so I was reluctant to make the jump to cam phasers being the issue.

Anyway, in searching for possible causes, I stumbled across Ford TSB 12-7-10 (http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/apjp02/2012-08-18_175722_tsb12-07-10.pdf), which described exactly the symptoms I was having (sounds like yours, too). Basically:

1) It only happened when the engine was hot and at idle.
2) It would occasionally throw codes P0340 and P0345.
3) Disconnecting the VCT solenoids made the problem go away.

Doing the diagnostic procedure detailed in the TSB, I was able to reproduce the problem every time.

So I replaced the VCT solenoids and the problem vanished.

My cousin (who is a journeyman mechanic) was giving me a hand with the replacement, and when I was demonstrating the problem to him, he was watching the passenger-side phaser through the oil fill cap. He made an interesting observation that when the engine was coming back down to idle and started rattling/knocking, the cam phaser that he could see was snapping back and forth hard, but after we replaced the solenoids, it was no longer doing that. His theory was that the VCT solenoids might have started acting up in some trucks, causing the phasers to snap back and forth like that too much, eventually shearing the indexing pin or otherwise causing them to fail. So ultimately, the problem was more to do with the VCT solenoids failing, thereby causing the failure of the cam phasers.

That was just his theory, but an interesting observation nonetheless. I do know from my research that the VCT system on this engine is very sensitive to oil pressure, weight and cleanliness.
 

powerranger262

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Also wanted to add, that besides VCTs, the timing chains have their issues as well. The plastic tensioner breaks apart, and plugs up a screen in the oil pan. Not good when that happens.
I would research VCT issues, as yours does fit the criteria.
 

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