Jeep Springs on the TTB *STUDY THIS THREAD BEFORE YOU SWAP!!!*

Todd said:

Ok, im just about done with my rig. All I need to do is get it to go down the road without the front end doing all sorts of stupid shit.

Redid the rad arms and built in caster, didnt fix it.

Here is the problem any small amount of toe change either makes the front end camber way out and sit down or camber way in and lift the front. Im talking about really small amounts of toe change. When I have it to the point where it will go down the road ok and turn makes the front end lift up as the tires are trying to walk under the truck.

I have checked everything and I dont know what the hell is going on. My next thought would be the steering? But I dont know, I dont want to keep taking stabs in the dark to figure this out.

Some specs if you dont know.

4.5" XJ coils
4" pivot drops
Extended rad arms almost the same as junkies.
4" pitman arm drop

Some one has to know what is going on as I dont????????????????

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4x4junkie said:

That sounds a lot like fawked up steering to me.


QUOTE(Todd @ May 18 2007, 04:01 PM)

4" pitman arm drop

---------------------------



So if you measure your pitman arm like this, is it 7" like the one at right?

And your steering linkage runs straight across (flat, no angle)?

If not, then yeah that's almost certainly the cause when combined with the flexier coils.

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Will said:

How are you checking the camber?

On mine I pull off the tires and set the rotor hub on a set of jackstands that are at the height it would be on the tires. I've had no luck rolling it around to settle it. You can do everything but toe without having to roll the truck around. It takes a little finesse to make sure the load is going only straight down. Do you have the pages from the service manual that show how to check the caster? That's more directly in line with what is going on because it sounds like you are pole-vaulting over the springs on the radius arms. The TTB is horrible when it's bad, but that horribleness makes it pretty good when it's working. The fact that you can have these serious problems is due to the travel it can have. We have had a couple other problems with people with serious jacking issues like you have and they gave up. I always wanted to get my hands on those trucks and see what the hell it was.

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Todd said:

Ok I just measured my pitman arm as the pic you posted and I am at 5 1/2". I should be around 7" you say? Must have got the wrong arm or something.

Also took the steering out and noticed the bend on the drag link is way more then it should be. Evans rig is here and compared mine to his and mine is got a larger bend on it. Dont know if this also caused the problem or it happened from the front binding. There is about a 1/2" gap on mine compared to 1 1/2" gap on Evans. Could this also be causing some problems?

As for the the camber I am not to worried about that as of now I just want it to go down the road. I have the caster at the ball joints set at 6 degrees. With the caster at 6 the camber is just about dead on when sittin on its weight after moving it a little.

So could this bend in the drag link and my pitman arm not dropped enough cause this major problem. I mean this is bad!!!! From this /----\ to this \----/ when I turn.

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Todd said:

5 1/2" from the frame to the end of the pitman arm, 7 1/2" from the frame to the end of the drag link end on the pitman arm. Would 1 1/2" make this much of a differance?

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pineypower1186 said:

the xj coils are ur problem. the are not designed for the ttb. i recommend limiting straps or a sway bar. if the rear is a little softer than stock that will contribute to the problem.

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cheapthrillB2 said:

i had a F250 with TTB that got a 6" lift and he had the exact problem you did, when he backed up the tires pulled towards each other and camber got way out lifting the frt, when he pulled forward it got better but still horrible...........we just did a simple alignment and got his toe/caster/camber in and fixed those problems......

but you def need dual shocks in the frt with the XJ coils, they are way to soft

i just finished installing 9" Rustys XJ coils into this B2,

its got 5.5 superlift TTB brackets, duff ext arms, the 4" drop Pitman and we haven't touched the alignment

when he would climb a small hill the tie rods pulled right in, and when he just drove forward it lifted so high in the frt, in that pic he was idleing forward, when he gased it, it lifted about 6 inches higher in the frt,

he could not drive this thing in my yard it was so scary, i intentioned installed a set of shocks that were to short, so when i installed them sitting level they were maxed out so it could not droop,

here it is after shock install

we are gonna use these shocks until the springs are worn in
but after the shock install he had NO PROBLEMS, drove fine, cornered well, and could climb the hills with no problems



side note* after break in we will install limiting straps for on road or light trail running

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Totalled said:

Besides the steering it's the XJ springs. They are too soft. They let the suspension move way more than stock or lift coils... so when you accelerate, the front end comes up like a drag car and transfers weight to the back.. pulling the toe in and positive cambering the tires. The opposite happens when you hit the brakes.

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Todd said:

The main problem is that it walks up or down when im in double low just crawling forward on flat ground. Depending on how the toe is set it either goes up or down really bad. When I have the toe set right for it to go strait on flat ground any turn or slight uphill grade makes it walk up. Backing up brings everything back to where it should be.

If the XJ coils are too soft then how did Junkie and Will make it work? Im going for max flex here so
I dont want to have to limit the down travel. If this is what needs to be done then why the hell did I spend all this time fabing up this front end?

Shocks, I dont have any on it as of now. Was planning on getting it rolling them RTI it and measure for shocks. Could running it without shocks cause this? I thought about it and dont see how it could. I mean I am moving at less then a mile an hour on flat paved ground and this is happening.

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cheapthrillB2 said:

yeah not having shocks MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE, every thing that i found siad dual shocks are a must,

on that b2 i installed some EXTREMELY stiff Bilstien shocks, by just installing the shocks it made an incredible difference

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Evan said:

Todd, shocks might solve the problem.

I agree, it seems like a sketchy solution, but some good dampening could stop it from walking up or down.

Good luck.

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Todd said:

The main thing I see about the shocks is it seems that there is a constant force trying to walk the front end. Shocks would only make it walk up slower. But I guess I could be wrong. The main thing here is I dont want to start throwing more money at this If I cant get this to work. Something is majorly screwed here and its just hard for me to believe its due to shocks.

Guess I'll see if I could get some shocks from a buddys rig and through on and see if it helps. That is if me messing with the steering does not help.

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cheapthrillB2 said:

just slap some thing to limit it level, drive it that way get it tuned in that manner,

were the springs you got used?

i've been told that the XJ springs will sag alot esc if you run a winch and heavy bumper

like in that pic its sitting level with 5.5 brackets and 8-9" coils and it hasn't sag yet so we expect atleast an inch or more of sag




in relation to that F250 i aligned, if you saw it before it was aligned you would swear that the lift was all messed up and installed worng and that the vrt end was all bent out of whack, but we put it on the rack changed out the camber/caster bushing and set toe with a alignment machine and it took care of all the problems. didn't "walk" up and when he backed up it was normal etc......

i'm concerned with the 4" brackets and the 4.5" coils that your gonna be less then 4" of lift creating more negative camber effect then positive

can you take a pic with it sitting flat, wheels forward as if your sitting on the ground in frt of it??

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Todd said:

I have spacers under the coils as they did not give me a full 4", but with the spacers its where it should be.

Yes the coils are used, been wheeled for a few years so they should be all good there as for sagging.

Well im off to try and bend the drag link back in the club press, cut and drop the a pitman arm and throw some shocks of a buddy on it and see what happens. If it helps then I will get a new drag link and right pitman arm.

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4x4junkie said:

WTF is all this???

All this crap about shocks, etc. is completely irrelevant if this is happening while just idling slowly.

IF THE STEERING IS JACKED UP AT AN ANGLE, IT'S GONNA PULL THE TOE IN AND CAUSE THE SUSPENSION TO JACK ITSELF UP!!!!
(I've posted repeatedly in the past about the piece of shit steering on these things, and how the slightest angle fawks shit up, does anyone ever read it??)

YES, XJ coils exacerbate the problem, but if the problem is not there to begin with... there's no problem to BE exacerbated (IMG:style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)



Todd, post up a front pic of your steering with it sitting level.

That's the only way I'll be able to get an idea of what's going on there.

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AllanD said:

There is a reason why the factory setups have the beams nearly level
as the factory sets them up...

The more angled they are the more they are prone to "jacking"

AD

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Will said:

Yeah, I did this how long ago? I daily drove it with my kids in it for 2 years with XJ springs. n9emz road with me 400 miles each way to Wellsville in '05 like this at 70mph with the cruise on. Ryan drove my truck. I picked him up in Indy one time and we did 85mph on the beltway with it--three kids in the back. I'm not insane, it's a decent driving vehicle. Many other TRS members have either driven it or ridden in it. It's solid. It's NOT THE SPRING RATE. If you haven't gotten it to work, you just haven't finished the install before giving up. It's that simple. You have to be careful during your setup. When I first did it, 4x4junkie said it would be too soft to work. Now he did it, and did a better job than I did.

Let me review the way my own truck is set up, because Todd's springs could be the wrong height or rate for has geometry. I don't know because he never asked my opinion about what he is doing. And I've said before that I only recommend 3" XJ 240# springs. I have gotten dozens of PMS and e-mails about this--many from people that hit on my article through Google and weren't members of TRS--i tel them all the same thing. I have a 3" lift and I got springs that sit exactly where the Duff 3" lift springs sat. I spent a lot of time thinking that through. I did not want the geometry to be off. It isn't. I have not modified my steering--stock Pitman arm in place. I remounted my shock hoops so I could make maximum use out of the spring travel--and I run two shocks--but the drops, radius arms, radius drops are all Duff's 3" lift. I drove it with one shock and it did not jack--it was just all over the road. Pretty scary, but it did not jack. I have been sent pictures of that jacking problem but it has never been a truck set up like mine. It's been a 6" set of XJs etc..

The problem with Todd's truck has to be in the alignment or the steering. If everything is correct, you get the same easy motion but the truck is just setting higher. You can't just roll the truck a little. It's not enough. Smear the garage floor with grease if you don't want to do what I do. What I do works though. I think you know how the alignment works, sounds like it. But it's pretty far out of whack to be doing that.

With the steering, think about jousting--like riding toward another guy in armor with a spear. When you hit that guy, you have to have your spear straight into him or there will be a moment arm (distance off of perpendicular to the point of strike x the force of the strike) that will either break your spear or jerk it out of your grip. The TTB steering is the same way. When you hit a bump, if the arm is pretty much straight the bump can't do much to it. But if there is an angle it's going to apply a torque to it and a little bit of angle goes a long way. And if all you have is 240# springs, it's going to go quickly. You have to get that as straight as you can. And the TTB works in other mysterious ways its wonders to perform. Because the knuckle going down pulls the steering inward and if you don't have the springs dampened very well, and there is an angle on the steering arms, it's going to drive the tires together at the front and lift the truck up off the suspension. And if the caster is jacked--like you don't have the ends of the radius arms dropped, it's got another lever arm there and will lift the truck even more readily.

So I would unhook the steering arms altogether, put the truck on stands like I have in my picture, get everything correct. Sight along the rotors with a long straight-edge like a rifle and get the toe at zero with a guy making a mark on the wall for you. Get it all exacty right--and I'll bet your steering linkage won't even go on. If I had your truck in my garage, that's exactly what I would do.

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Todd said:

My buddy says that my coils are 4.5 Rustys coils and that the spring rate is 150. He also says that there are no XJ coils that are around 240. So who is right? Are my coils too soft and if XJ coils can not be had at 240 then what springs do I need.

Im going to dick with the steering when I wake up and if I cant get it to work I dont know what to do. Maybe its a lost cause as the coils im trying to use are way to soft. I just got some cash so tell me what coils to buy for 4" of lift with a lot of flex. Because all my jeep buddys tell me there is no such thing as a 240 XJ coil.

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HahnsB2 said:

(4x4junkie @ May 18 2007, 06:42 PM)

WTF is all this???

All this crap about shocks, etc. is completely irrelevant if this is happening while just idling slowly.

IF THE STEERING IS JACKED UP AT AN ANGLE, IT'S GONNA PULL THE TOE IN AND CAUSE THE SUSPENSION TO JACK ITSELF UP!!!!
(I've posted repeatedly in the past about the piece of shit steering on these things, and how the slightest angle fawks shit up, does anyone ever read it??)

YES, XJ coils exacerbate the problem, but if the problem is not there to begin with... there's no problem to BE exacerbated (IMG:style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)



Todd, post up a front pic of your steering with it sitting level.

That's the only way I'll be able to get an idea of what's going on there.

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I agree, it sounds like the steering linkage is out of whack and thats what causes the jacking. It sounds like your "drop" pitman arm isnt dropped enough, Id suggest the "extreme" drop arm from skyjacker...
Also a note on spring rate, everything Ive ever heard says that XJs are around 240 and YJs are considerably less than that.

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Todd said:

Ok so whats the deal, rustys springs

These coils are 3" 150 and mine are 4" 150 coils. So these would be way to soft, right? Been looking around and all the coils I can find are around 150. Now Grand Cherokee "ZJ" coils are stiffer do to the V8's in them. Are these what you run.

Will and Junkie, tell me the exact brand, lift, and spring rate of you coils. Where did you get them? Im really starting to think I have the wrong coils.

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will said:

http://www.therangerstation.com/magazine/fall2003/maximumflexforthettb.htm

everthing i did is in there, including part #'s.

I don't want you to have to tell your jeep buddies that almost all xj lift springs are 240#/". But i see the rancho 6423 spring is still on their website and it's still the same thing.

http://www.gorancho.com/flash/docs/2005_suspension.pdf

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noyb72 said:

i am way out of my league here, so this is probably really, really stupid.

I was just thinking, did you say you were pulling forward with your doubler in low? It seems to me that that will torque the living hell out of that suspension, regardless of speed. It was said that you are climbing like a dragster off the line? When dad was racing one of the things he did if the front end went up was increase the damping out back, i got to thinking and i remembered that duff has a rear dual shock setup and one of the things they advertise is that it increaases control by keeping the tires on the ground and that it improves cornering (turning,) i am sure your rig is way past what duff intended but logically if you make the back stiff enough not to squat then the front is going to have a harder time climbing.

Again i could be totally off my rocker, and probably am, but it was just my thought.

Ron

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4x4junkie said:

rancho xj coils are infact 240, as are skyjacker's and rough country (the tj coils those 3 make are much less, around 170 or so).

Rancho, rc, and sj i do believe group xj and zjs together, so maybe there would be more consistency to be had with zj springs? I don't know. Rusty's is a brand i have not researched.

I still say your steering is your problem. Your pitman arm does not match your lift height. With the steering correct, too soft coils would simply be that... Too soft (too much bodyroll, too much tendency to slam down on the bumpstops in dips, etc.). If the toe isn't being pulled in like that, it cannot jack.

I would see about collecting the parts together to set up a k-link on it. That would be by far the best solution (you can set it's centerlink at the height it needs to be at without loading the steeringbox down with an extra-long pitman arm).

If you would rather stick with the stock linkage, then what i believe you need is the skyjacker pitman arm pt#fa600. This is the only arm out there with a true drop of around 4", which should put that y-linkage flat.




I have the rancho coils in mine. They were too short for 3" (i have to use big spacers). They also have sagged out over time, requiring me to add even more and more washers to shim it back up so the truck's not leaning. I strongly do not recommend anything from rancho, everything i've had from them is garbage (i had one of their rbv lifts years ago, almost every single bracket on it had one or more cracks in it after only two years of wheeling, their rs9000 shock's valving sucks, etc., etc., blah, blah).

I plan to swap skyjacker's 6" xj (zj) coils in it eventually (possibly moving the coil buckets up an inch if i have to).




Noyb72,
you're thought makes sense, but the problem is the screwed-up steering drives the two front tires toward each other, which causes the suspension to try to raise itself up like the arms on a scissors lift, the suspension cannot settle back down if you were to let off the gas and let the truck roll free in neutral.

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totalled said:

(todd @ may 18 2007, 05:50 pm)

shocks, i dont have any on it as of now. Was planning on getting it rolling them rti it and measure for shocks. Could running it without shocks cause this? I thought about it and dont see how it could. I mean i am moving at less then a mile an hour on flat paved ground and this is happening.

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well no shit. You have no shocks, no limiters on the suspension travel. When it pulls up.. It's gonna toe in and keep compounding if it doesn't have something to stop the up travel from the toe. #150 rusty's springs are just one more problem. You have problem compounding upon problem.

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noyb72 said:

(4x4junkie @ may 19 2007, 04:16 pm)


noyb72,
you're thought makes sense, but the problem is the screwed-up steering drives the two front tires toward each other, which causes the suspension to try to raise itself up like the arms on a scissors lift, the suspension cannot settle back down if you were to let off the gas and let the truck roll free in neutral.

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great, can you explaine how the steering is pulling the wheels together? It seems to me the truck is climbing and that is causing the steering and suspension to come together, pulling the wheels together. So i'm just wondering how i'm screwed up.

Thanks

ron

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cheapthrillb2 said:

just to give you an idea

without shocks

with shocks (shocks are limiting down travel)

without some type of dampening/limiting, when you accelrate the coils are just gonna let the frt pick-up and up and the more it lifts the worse the toe gets due to the pitman pulling on it

you can see the difference in the two pics of the steering angle on the makeshift ramp

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milje said:

(totalled @ may 19 2007, 07:35 pm)

well no shit. You have no shocks, no limiters on the suspension travel. When it pulls up.. It's gonna toe in and keep compounding if it doesn't have something to stop the up travel from the toe. #150 rusty's springs are just one more problem. You have problem compounding upon problem.

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i don't think it has anything to do with shocks or anything limiting down travel. If he put shocks on, it would still jack, just stop at a certain point.

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noyb72 said:

ok, got it, the wheels are coming together at the front, i can see how steering would do that. Ya, i think the springs are way to soft. If the 240s do that without shocks i'd hate to see 150s.

Ron

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will said:

the shocks are too short if they limit down travel. You have the worng shocks on it if they aren't allowing full travel. They aren't there for that. They do limit dampen the motion though so in instaneous situations, the suspenion won't move as far. If the steering or alignment is out of whack the shocks won't fix the jacking--you can operate shocks by hand.

Fwiw, my rancho coils have not sagged that i have noticed. I have been running two shocks, one in front of the axle, so it's possible the shocks have prevented them from 'working' too much. I don't know but they have been on there for about 4 years i think.

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totalled said:

an oldy by goodie...

8" skyjacker with no shocks...

you're not really gonna get rid of the toe in issue with ttb unless you go to k style steering or limit suspension travel. Soft jeep coils just let you get to the limits of travel sooner.

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cheapthrillb2 said:

i am just using the shocks as an example of how we are limiting the upward travel for now...............

The point i am trying to make is regardless of alignment, (todd's case probably doesn't apply) but if you "dump" the clutch or has his doubler engaged, when he lets it out the frt is gonna lift regardless just from the natural tendency, the rear will squat the frt will lift, the xj coils allow it to lift alot more then it would with rbv coils, so with a larger amount of lift the more the toe will pull in

i know this does not apply here, but i align a 8-9 second chevy ii every spring, and when i align it i raise the frt end up almost to the point of the tires coming off the rack and set the alignment their. Why, because when he launches the frt raises so much that with a normal type alignment he can't control the car due to the tow/camber change at the height, so when i set his alignment at that raised height he has no problems keeping the car under control, yeah slow speed driving to the line from the pits suck, but hes not going 100 mph then

i really want to see a pic of todds steering set-up at level

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4x4junkie said:

(noyb72 @ may 19 2007, 07:08 pm)

great, can you explaine how the steering is pulling the wheels together? It seems to me the truck is climbing and that is causing the steering and suspension to come together, pulling the wheels together. So i'm just wondering how i'm screwed up.

Thanks

ron

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remember that the twin-beam suspension acts as levers.
If the tires are being driven toward each other by bad toe, it "squeezes" (for lack of a better term) on the suspension beams, causing it to raise up. I don't know how much simpler i can explain it, but the problem is because of toe. You could put 100 lb coils in there, if the toe stays straight, it doesn't jack, no matter how much it raises!

(totalled)
an oldy by goodie...

8" skyjacker with no shocks...

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yeah..... And look at the screwed up steering that thing had

compare that to here:

why is it so hard to get this point across? Why is it so hard to see that this type of angle will splay the tires out on compression, and suck them toward each other on extension?? (you can see it in the sidewall flex in those pics too!) am i just not explaining it right?? What the hell gives here!??.

Help me out here will... I assume you know what i'm talking about... ???

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will said:

that article i wrote about selecting springs should be followed, by the way. Because of the nutcracker effect of the ttb, a little change in spring rate is a big change out on the end of the axle. A 150# spring would have to be (one of the kids made off with my calculator so i can't estimate very well) maybe 25" to hold the truck at the same level as a 19" 240# spring. You would have really had to have forced that thing in there if it were really a 150# spring. My 240# rancho's require just a foot bounce on the knuckle--i just put one back in today after fixing that radius arm.



Heh, i was looking for that picture last night, totalled. That's great.

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cheapthrillb2 said:

(4x4junkie @ may 19 2007, 11:52 pm)

. I don't know how much simpler i can explain it, but the problem is because of toe. You could put 100 lb coils in there, if the toe stays straight, it doesn't jack, no matter how much it raises!

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so then your saying no matter how much the frt raises the toe isn't gonna pull inward, if you have the correct pitman arm and toe set-up right?.......



Now i have absolutely no problems with my steering on my truck, i can drive it 60mph down any road hit bumps etc....

My steering linkage is not level, its damn close, but all the pics i see of my truck while i'm driving under i unload the frt (lif tit up) my toe pulls inward and my camber positives out, so if my linkage was perfectly horizontal this would not happen............

the rf is on a slight incline and the left is on flat (thats why it looks like the rf is camber out more then lf)

unloading the front, toes pulled in and camber out, so then if my linkage was flat this wouldn't happen


i'm just trying to understand what your typing, (i'm not trying to come off as a ass, just trying to figure it out)

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4x4junkie said:

(cheapthrillb2 @ may 19 2007, 09:13 pm)

so then your saying no matter how much the frt raises the toe isn't gonna pull inward, if you have the correct pitman arm and toe set-up right?.......
Now i have absolutely no problems with my steering on my truck, i can drive it 60mph down any road hit bumps etc....

My steering linkage is not level, its damn close, but all the pics i see of my truck while i'm driving under i unload the frt (lif tit up) my toe pulls inward and my camber positives out, so if my linkage was perfectly horizontal this would not happen............

the rf is on a slight incline and the left is on flat (thats why it looks like the rf is camber out more then lf)

unloading the front, toes pulled in and camber out, so then if my linkage was flat this wouldn't happen
i'm just trying to understand what your typing, (i'm not trying to come off as a ass, just trying to figure it out)

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your linkage is far from level, that thing's gotta be at least a 3" longer pitman arm (or 3" less lift and same pitman arm)

you would have about 80% less toe in if the linkage was level at ride height. Throw a k-link on it and you'd probably be 90-95% less toe in.

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will said:

no, but if you have an angle you are giving the pinch a head start. It it's level, you have a lot of 'dead area' where the motion will not be detrimental to steering.

With enough shock dampening, you will not reach the point past the 'dead area' on the street.

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cheapthrillb2 said:

regardless if its level or not as the frt raises it pulls the toe in, with xj springs and no shocks its gonna pull (raise easeir/faster causeing a quicker toe in, creating the alignment issue)

i agree i could use a longer pitman arm, but what i have works, i have no ill effects driving (aside from large amounts of frt lift such as in pic) onpavement off pavement

my stock explorer has "level" steerin linkage, if i go out and use my hi-lift on the bumper and lift it 3" for example my toe will pull in and the camber will pull positve.............am i mistaken,
i've never had the linkage level on my rig so i can't speak from exp on this, thats why i am asking all the questions.....and clearly my dd ex is a completely different vehicle to drive


quote(will @ may 20 2007, 12:17 am)


with enough shock dampening, you will not reach the point past the 'dead area' on the street.


This is where i was trying to get in the begining of this thread
its getting hard to read between the three if us posting every other minute then responding then we go back and edit add stuff before we repost lol
i am taking this with a grain of salt and learing, so thank you for taking the time to explain and not getting all frustrated and what not

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cheapthrillb2 said:

i don't see the need to be so vulgar, am i coming off that ignorant, do you feel i am a dumbass,

i think i am asking pretty legit questions,

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4x4junkie said:

(cheapthrillb2 @ may 19 2007, 09:27 pm)


i agree i could use a longer pitman arm, but what i have works, i have no ill effects driving (aside from large amounts of frt lift such as in pic) onpavement off pavement

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you also have stiff ttb coils.

I guarantee you flexier coils will absolutely not work with that steering link angle.

Will's explainiation is correct (thank you), the "dead area" where the toe stays straight (flat linkage) needs to be centered over where your static ride height is.
With the linkage pulled up by a too-tall lift/too-short pitman arm, the "dead area" is moved outside of where it needs to be (and is likely why todd's is jacking).

i don't see the need to be so vulgar, am i coming off that ignorant, do you feel i am a dumbass,

i think i am asking pretty legit questions,

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if that was directed at me, no i don't think you're a dumbass, what's very frustrating when i see shit like at the beginning of the thread "xj coils are not designed for a ttb" yeah no shit!! ;no2; thats not the problem.
I took the time to put up (what i thought would be) a very informative post in the xtreeme fab section, but i get the feeling these people have never taken any time to read it.

I am sorry if i came off too harsh, but it's extremely frustrating that everyone continues to zero in on irrelevant things like shocks and limit straps when the problem is right in front there.

I guess i'll bow out for a bit and take a breather from this shit for now. Sorry

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cheapthrillb2 said:

(4x4junkie @ may 20 2007, 12:39 am)

you also have stiff ttb coils.

I guarantee you flexier coils will absolutely not work with that steering link angle.

Will's explainiation is correct (thanks), the "dead area" where the toe stays straight (flat linkage) needs to be centered over where your static ride height is.
With the linkage pulled up by a too-tall lift/too-short pitman arm, the "dead area" is moved outside of where it needs to be (and is likely why todd's is jacking).
If that was directed at me, no i don't think you're a dumbass, what's very frustrating when i see shit like at the beginning of the thread "xj coils are not designed for a ttb" yeah no shit!! ;no2; thats not the problem.
I took the time to put up (what i thought would be) a very informative post in the xtreeme fab section, but i get the feeling these people have never taken any time to read it.

I am sorry if i came off too harsh, but it's extremely frustrating that everyone always zeros in on irrelevant things like shocks and limit straps when the problem is right in front there.

I guess i'll bow out for a bit and take a breather from this shit for now. Sorry

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i know having stiff coils is the difference in my truck

and thank you, that explantion explains what i was condradiciting in my own mind, and to be honest if i would have read that explanation about 15 posts ago, i wouldn't of had any more questions, i hadn't been educated in this "dead area" first time hearing of it, and i can see where that would give room to "play" before the steering is effected as the frt lifts

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Will said:

Who was vulgar?

The thing you need to understand is the rate of the length change in that two-piece steering arm with respect to the angle. The length of the 2 piece steering arm changes very gently when the steering arms are level for a given movement of the axle beam. If the arms already have a decent angle to them, they will 'shorten' much more radpidly in the direction they are already going. you could probably experiment with some scissors and see what we're talking about.

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cheapthrillB2 said:

(Will @ May 20 2007, 01:06 AM)

Who was vulgar?

The thing you need to understand is the rate of the length change in that two-piece steering arm with respect to the angle. The length of the 2 piece steering arm changes very gently when the steering arms are level for a given movement of the axle beam. If the arms already have a decent angle to them, they will 'shorten' much more radpidly in the direction they are already going. you could probably experiment with some scissors and see what we're talking about.

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i understand now where you and Junkie were getting at, i wasn't familar with the "dead area"

i thought junkie was getting frustrated with me asking all those quietions, their was some F bombs gettin dropped (their cleaned up now) but its all good) , i understand now and it makes sense,

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Dirtraider said:

wait guys i have the solution to all of this toe in/camber/jacking/ non-sense and it will allow you to run ANY coil set up you want....

TADA! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hammerhit.gif)

It had to be said, sorry. Interesting read though, i'm with Junkie on this though, with the flexier coils the steerings is causing problems.

like Cheapthrills, had stiff 5.5 in superlift coils in the 3in duff brackets, with a dropped pitman arm and it would align (steering wasn't flat by any means however). But it would drive fine and would change camber crazy under hard acceleration. Yet i have no doubt in my mind that if i had anything softer than the stiff ass coils i wouldn't have been able to drive my shit down the road. As it was it had crazy body roll, and would change camber to the point of making people cringe, with the solid axle however, i'm a few inches taller but soooo much more stable.

Todd good luck figuring it out, lot more understanding with it than i ever would be.

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Will said:

My pitman is stock and I have a bit of angle to the arms. But my radius arms are level. When the toe is off and the tires drive toward each other that causes a braking action that pole vaults you up when your radius arms are angled. It may be an even more important factor then that because my arms are dead level and I have no problems at all even with stock steering. I get some of the toe in but it could be that since my arms are level the steering arms travel less distance since they aren't swinging backwards as much. In fact, I'd stake my hat on it. Run those radius arms level and I bet it will help tremendously

Come to think of it, every component of the TTB/TIB works better level. If you have too much ride height for a given pivot bracket you have removed some of the dead movement area of the steering arm linkage as well because it's a 3 dimensional problem--radius arms, axle beams and the linkage itself. The fact that my beams and radius arms are both level gives me some leeway on the linkage. The center of the TTB cluster-fawk is the steering arm length. Get the radius arms and beams level, then get the linkage level, make sure you have strong shocks--or double them, align the bastard--that's it. Bliss and happiness.

This is how to check the ride height. If the springs/spacers bring this measurement into line with the drop bracket height all is well. So if you have a 4" lift, you should have the springs set to bring this measurement to 7 1/8", 6" lift would be 9 1/8" etc.. A lot of people jam things under the coils for a cheap lift--don't do it with XJ coils in mind. If the beams are installed angled any movement will bring the tires together rapidly, shrtening the steering linkage, causing it to toe in all that more quickly. Keep the beams level and you have a dead zone. Obviously if you have 4x4 Junkie's K steering on it, the beams are less an issue.

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noyb72 said:

Got it.

So the toe will always come in when the front climbs due to steering, but if your steering linkage is correct (level, preferably a K link,) then the "dead area" is large enough to keep the toe manegable as the front climbs. Softer springs don't make the steering issue worse or better, they just allow the front end to climb easier and therefore exacerbate the issue assuming the steering isn't correct in the first place. If the steering is correct and you have really soft springs, the front will climb but the steering "dead area," which is actually where you want the steering to be, is large enough to allow the front end to climb up as far as anyone would want it and still be manageable. Stiffer springs keep the front end from climbing so the issue is more manageble because even the small "dead area" provided by improper steering geometry is big enough for the small amount of climbing.

Todds truck has lots of crawl ratio generating torque, really soft springs and a small dead area due to improper steering geometry. Which basically means until he changes one of those things he's in a death trap.

Do I got it right?

Ron

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Totalled said:

(4x4junkie @ May 19 2007, 09:39 PM)

You also have stiff TTB coils.

I guarantee you flexier coils will absolutely not work with that steering link angle.

Will's explainiation is correct (thanks), the "dead area" where the toe stays straight (flat linkage) needs to be centered over where your static ride height is.
With the linkage pulled up by a too-tall lift/too-short pitman arm, the "dead area" is moved outside of where it needs to be (and is likely why Todd's is jacking).
If that was directed at me, no I don't think you're a dumbass, What's very frustrating when I see shit like at the beginning of the thread "XJ coils are not designed for a TTB" Yeah no shit!! ;no2; Thats NOT the problem.
I took the time to put up (what I thought would be) a very informative post in the Xtreeme fab section, but I get the feeling these people have never taken any time to read it.

I am sorry if I came off too harsh, but it's extremely frustrating that everyone always zeros in on irrelevant things like shocks and limit straps when the problem is right in front there.

I guess I'll bow out for a bit and take a breather from this shit for now. Sorry

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You need to realize... that not everyone is willing nor able to shell out $400 for a steering solution that makes the situation acceptable.

My point about shocks... and the springs being too soft.. is... since he has jacked up steering linkage angles (sorry I left that point or reference out of my previous posts) And he has no shocks to limit/slow down the travel at all... it's gonna go to maxed out camber/toe further and faster than a truck with fucked steering and stiff springs/shocks... the stiff springs and shocks allow you to get by with the incorrect steering. It makes it bearable... instead of OMFG! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shok.gif) *swerve-crash*

I've driven RBVs with XJ coils and not right steering... if there wasn't a stiff ass rancho shock on each beam that was a bit short of the max suspension droop... I'd be undrivable on the street.


Thread summary... you can't **** around with soft coils on the TTB. Everything has to be right... there is no getting by or good enough.... or it'll bite you in the ass.

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Rulebreaker said:

I think the biggest problem is that any red neck (This includes me) can lift one of these rigs way up for real cheap. He gets it all done and the front end jacks under exceleration and drives terrible. So then he's told he needs $400 to fix the stearing and he don't have that wraped up in the lift and tires and they are allot cooler than steering. I did this very thing. 5" of lift and stock steering. What a ride, and I dont have soft springs. This is what I did for a cheap fix. I built my steering from 2 BroncoII and one explorer drag links. Now keep in mind it's not perfect and I'm not running flexy coils but it made it allot better. RB

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noyb72 said:

I KNEW I had seen that setup on someone's rig in a diffrent steering thread somewhere. I think your solution works to do the same thing, get the steering closer to level. As stated, level everything seems to be the key, the more level everything is the bigger your dead or neutral zone is, and thats what all the big boys are after.

Ron

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4x4junkie said:

(Totalled @ May 20 2007, 08:26 AM)

You need to realize... that not everyone is willing nor able to shell out $400 for a steering solution that makes the situation acceptable.

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I DO realize that (there ARE infact other options available out there besides Superlift's POS overpriced kit, too).

Go price out steering corrections for anything else (hi-steer for a straightaxle, for example), you'll quickly find out anything else isn't exactly cheap either. You're gonna have a hard time cheaping out to the extreme and still have everything work correct though.


.



Will, that was a good explanation on the radius arms (and is probably true, I hadn't really given the arms themselves much thought).

My arms are not level, they slope down at probably a 4-5° angle. You are probably right though, it's not presenting an issue because my steering isn't all off. I didn't want to have a drop bracket eating up clearance behind the tire so I made them as high as possible.
I guess this could be another possibility for those having this issue to look into.

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cheapthrillB2 said:

my raduis arms are flat (level) so that probably helps with my non level steering linkage

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Will said:

Todds crawl ratio is not an issue. I don't know why that keeps popping up. Otherwise, noyb72, you have a good grasp of it. Shocks help a lot because they resist the movement--like punching under water--you can't hurt anyone punching under water.

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noyb72 said:

I brought up crawl ratio because of my experiance with full suspension bicycles. With monkey motion, if you start off in a high gear the bike stays flat, if you start off in a low gear with the same energy the ass end squats and the front lifts. With a bike that's not bad because you can shift the weight of your body to dampen the lift (same as using spring rate and shocks only the force is the other way,) and the extra weight on the ass end gives you traction. It stands to reason that if the truck was in a higher gear it wouldn't accelerate (front end climb) as fast and therefore the suspension would have more time to settle down.

At least that's the way I see it.

I could be, and have been many times, wrong.

Ron

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milje said:

The thing is there is no "squatting" going on with Todd's problem. He's going as slow as possible, he could put the truck in neutral and coast down a hill and it would do the same thing.


I know what you're talking about though, it just doesn't apply in this particular case.

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Todd said:

Ok man did this thread took a turn for the worst.

First I would like to thank everyone that had something supportive to say to help me solve my problem. And guess what I did fix it. Steering DING DING DING!!!!!!!!

Now at right hight the drag link and driver side link are dead nuts level and guess what it works damn fine now. Took her out wheelin for the first time today and DAMN does the old girl flex. Also got a set of some 14" travel shocks on it with some custom shock towers. She did damn well on the trail but I still have a few bugs to work out that you would only find out about in da bush. And I was not easy on it it, busted a driver side shaft at the end of the day. But other than that she is all set. Some more tweaking change a shaft and some more wheelin soon.

Oh, and I will have pics up soon. Didnt want to post anything untill it was all done. And its just about there.

Hate to keep all you guys waiting. It looks like a damn mini monster truck.

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Dirtraider said:

Word. Awesome that you got the steering to work for you.


But alas i do find it a little humors that after all the work you just did, you still broke a shaft. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)

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milje said:

I knew something was going on when the B2 wasn't at Christians house, and John's and Orrin's trucks were at the Range House with trailers.


Gimme a hollar sometime this week if you have an empty seat. Or even if I have to ride with John or something (jeep, esh).




Glad to hear it Todd.

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Todd said:

(Dirtraider @ May 21 2007, 10:24 AM)

But alas i do find it a little humors that after all the work you just did, you still broke a shaft. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)

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Ya shit happens. Guess it was time for a shaft to go anyway havnet had one fail in some time. Shafts go when you wheel, and I was given her some in a rockie, muddy, log, stumped out hill climb. No worries, have plenty of spares.

Need to work on the old girl but its raining and its on the trailer. So that mean I need to pull her off swap on the roller tires to fit it in the shop. I could just wait but I want to wheel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/peace.gif)

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noyb72 said:

COOL!!

Gald to see your up and running. Can't wait to see the picks.

Ron

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milje said:

I take it you did Whealkate? Going by the description if I had to guess it's the really shitty climb on the left (from the bottom) where me and you, John and Phil, and I think Hubbler hit last fall (with the big rock that dented John's rocker panel)?

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Todd said:

Ya thats where we where last. Ran 6 hour then some other trails and then headed to that climb and thats where I busted the shaft. Got a fresh 760 and shaft in there now.

And pics are in show off. BII type R. Enjoy.

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Bent Bolt said:

(4x4junkie @ May 19 2007, 09:52 PM)

Compare that to here: (if Cardomain ever fixes their shit):

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I still think that if you keep the inverted Y steering flat like the lower picture and increase the length of the drivers side tie rod, you will minimize the retarded toe change.

I have a plan to shorten a right side tie rod from a Econoline which would lengthen the driver side tie rod by 4".
Just a matter of getting to my buddys shop----- he has a lathe.

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