Discussion- 2.8 with 3.8 FI and SC12/14 Supercharger

[Dsetz]

Greetings all,
I would appreciate a discussion about the idea of utilizing an oversized throttle body with associated computer system, tied to a supercharger. Essentially the computer/sensors believes it is X size larger (than the motor its on) and you supply the extra displacement by way of forced induction.
I won't be doing this soon(busy life, slow build) but would appreciate the conversation and critical discussion to make plans.

I've been lurking awhile and come up with what I think is an elegant(ish) solution for increasing the power in my 84 Ranger 2.8. I'm slowly planning a build of it. It will cannibalize most of my 94 Explorer but I don't really want to play with the 4.0. Parts are crazy expensive compared to those for the 2.8, and I like the long torque range and high rpm of the 2.8. I'd really like it if it achieved the 160 HP+ that 2.8's did in Europe(and the 4.0 does).

Anyways,
I want to do a FI conversion, mostly for the idle, easy start and mpg potential.
My elegant idea is to do the 3.8 CFI conversion, combined with a SC12 or SC14 supercharger.
Why the SC12/14? Because the Aisin superchargers are affordable and are plumbed already. No nightmare of building adapters in the CNC shop I don't have. Honestly I don't know why more people don't use them for this reason. And it can be tucked to the side to preserve the hood. And if the motor dies before the SC I can slap it on something else potentially, like my Nova with a 250 L6. Or if its great the Nova gets one too.

By my estimations the SC12 would run at about a 1.25-1.3 pulley ratio as is. So, 2.8 + 1.5= 4.3. 4.3-3.8=.5, which is about 15% more than 3.8 ECM expects. As I understand the MAP can handle about a 20% deviation, so I would be within that realm, assuming I didn't mod it too much more.
That's kind of my intent, is to spend my $$ on a modular SC setup for power instead of the low returns and high labor required to awaken a 2.8. But to also spend as little $$ as possible, basically junk yarding as much as possible.
I do realize the SC system is much more complicated than a compressor and plumbing, but I haven't put as much research into the small details.
Obviously I intend to use the already plumbed SC12 for a push-through application to minimize fabrication issues.
I assume I need a carb/tbi hat/bonnet, like a Spectre.
I believe the SC12 has a built in BOV. It was also mated to an intercooler in most cases, so they are cheap and readily available also. I've read a boost/vacuum indexed fuel pressure regulator can be had from many forced induction vehicles.
I haven't done any math on the injectors. I assume they would handle 5psi but might need to be larger for more boost.

Quick question- could I use such a vacuum regulated fuel pressure regulator on the 3.8 conversion in a NA form, to avoid the overfueling issues rangerdanger encountered?

My numbers indicate 5-9 psi, depending on VE, and around 165-200 HP.
It will sound both farking awesome and horrendous at the same time!
Check out this mad max supercharged 2.9! Already has the wife cringing hahaha.

Please, throw me your thoughts and criticisms. Just don't tell me to use the 4.0 ?.

The whole intent behind the build is just a bad ass 4x4 ranger I intend to keep forever. It'll get the 8.8 LS Explorer rear axle and 95+ disc brakes on it. I want the 63" chevy leafs and flipped articulating shackles. Also the beefier 5 speed manual with the longer 1-2-3 gears and 10" clutch. Eventually it will get the Dana 35 from the explorer too. I think with the 8.8 being 2" wider I'll be able to fit 255/70-75's on the rear to keep it planted.
Already got the explorer radiator and when I swap trannies it will get the trans cooler. Add an oil cooler.
Aerostar headers and a dual 2" exhaust. Will ideally do some port and polish and drill out the heads to eliminate the hot spots.
Oh I want to figure out the aerostar serpentine conversion as well to get rid of the v.

Ok sorry that post is a chapter long, but I hope I can get some feedback on this idea I think is great ?, and I'm honestly surprised by not seeing anyone else conceive/realize already in this crazy world.
D

 

[Uncle Gump]

I ummm…. ummm

I think @PetroleumJunkie412 is about the only who would do something like this. He probably has the answers you want.

 

[Dsetz]

Thanks, Uncle G, I'll see if PJunkie shows and or PM him.
If the build works Ill do a tech article on it for posterity.

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

I'm around. Read this last night.

There's a ton of problems to solve with a build like this.

Really, really bad forced induction idea...

Yes, this is about a 2.9L. No, I'm not just going to put a 4.0L in it. Yes I understand it's easier. Yes I understand the 2.9 is a turd. This is about feasibility, not cost and time effectiveness. ...because I like banging my head against a wall. JEEZE MOM! Ok, now that I've gotten that out...

www.therangerstation.com

The guys here pretty much discussed it in depth. I'm still hacking away at it myself.

If you're going to go fuel injection, Megasquirt/Microsquirt it. Don't even waste your time with FoMoCo parts. Best thing Ive ever done to my Ranger to date was put my EEC-IV in a box and give it to @rusty ol ranger.

If you don't believe me and want a pile of 2.9 MAF sensors, pm me. ?

The other thing I will say is a remote turbocharger would be a MUCH easier build.

That said, it has been done.

 

[Dsetz]

Thanks for the replies. I've read some of the bad forced induction idea thread, but will get back into it and see if it answers some of my questions and or presents more for me to run by you.

I know that everybody pops into a forum says I want to SC it, tell me how.... I don't want to be that guy.

I've discounted Megasquirt, but will investigate it more. Don't have the $$ currently, but it would allow me to run and or SC the 4.0 if I wanted.

I believe the 3.8 CFI is speed density controlled, not MAF.

And the SC12 would be a remote mount essentially. SC12 on right. It is plumbed top and bottom.


Edit- Oh I must have got into that thread past page 1 before, it's near exactly my question , and you know everyting bout da SC12 (Cleo is takin over). I'll finish reading it.

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

Thanks for the replies. I've read some of the bad forced induction idea thread, but will get back into it and see if it answers some of my questions and or presents more for me to run by you.

I know that everybody pops into a forum says I want to SC it, tell me how.... I don't want to be that guy.

I've discounted Megasquirt, but will investigate it more. Don't have the $$ currently, but it would allow me to run and or SC the 4.0 if I wanted.

I believe the 3.8 CFI is speed density controlled, not MAF.

And the SC12 would be a remote mount essentially. SC12 on right. It is plumbed top and bottom.
View attachment 30438

Edit- Oh I must have got into that thread past page 1 before, it's near exactly my question , and you know everyting bout da SC12 (Cleo is takin over). I'll finish reading it.

Done my share of junkyard blower reading haha.

Another thought is dual AMR500 blowers. They can be had for as little as $70 for a rebuilt one, and are v belt driven.

The Megasquirt is unriavled, and gives you levels of control over an engine that they have in Detroit.

I posted recently about the turbo technics kits as well. I do know where a kit is available for a 2.8 if you are interested.




Just as a side note, I went with the M62 because of the low cost ($30), and the fact it has a mad max clutch, and it's remote mounted on its donor engine. It is a little small for the 2.9, but it's also smaller than most turbochargers (footprint). There's a photo on here somewhere of one of mine sitting between two m90s and an M45 I sold off. Way I see it, if it's on thermally side and doesn't provide enough efficient boost, I can always twin charge (and endure an AWESOME explosion when it does finally give up).

 

[Dsetz]

Ok, that was a good read. I also started this thought train with an AMR500, and I see you have had many of the options in hand to think it through farther. However the thread didn't answer my questions about tricking the 3.8 ECM by providing the extra airflow/displacement on top of the 2.8 with the forced induction.

I do have to agree though, it makes more sense for myself, to utilize my intermediate programming/soldering/pc skills with a megasquirt or quarterhorse setup, than become a carb expert. Megasquirt seems more modular, so better bang for the $. I hope though to be able to run it on the 3.8 without going that extra mile. Stage# 4 could be the Megasquirt, for adding mods/CFM above the 3.8's tolerances. Or for the future motor swap when the 2.8 goes bang.

For me, the plumbing on a remote mount turbo would be an imposition, as I don't have access to a pro shop. Plus I want the low end torque from a SC. The 2.8/2.9 are an odd motor for fords. They have torque over a long range, and rev high. I want to enhance the torque and probably won't rev it over 5k much if ever.

Concerning your questions about which SC to use. My input is the largest that is convenient. These roots blowers become very in-efficient and hot over 10k rpm. I figured I would go for a largish unit, which would produce modest boost at low RPM's, but could maintain modularity so that if I moved the system to my Nova 250 cid or a 5.0, it would produce at least 3-5 psi at around 10k rpm.

There is an excellent writeup on the SC14 as utilized in the 80's Supra somewhere. Let me see if I can re-find it. They discuss how the compressor clutch was utilized. Surprisingly those Supras only made about 160 HP, and used the SC more as throttle down power adder than an all-the-time boost like you'd expect. Ah, here is the article. Good one in general for our purposes.
https://hydemotorworks.com/2015/10/15/old-archival-notes-on-the-sc14-supercharger/

Utilizing the clutch for NA operation at idle seems problematic to me. Especially if you are increasing injector size and building over NA fuel capacity already. I don't know enough about referenced Fuel Pressure Regulators to say whether they would reduce fueling to an idle-able rate, but I would like to know the same thing as I'd like to utilize 3.8 FI prior to forced induction. I believe they are the solution.

The clutch might operate well with a supplemental injection system that leaves the stock fueling system un-changed and just injects extra fuel via a separate sensor/ecm like your Megasquirt, before or after the SC. I'll look for photos if you haven't seen such a system.
The Eatons are suitable for a wet system with the injector before them, which is best for SC's as it controls heat and offers better atomization. It is questionable whether the Aisin's, with Fluorine coated rotors, would withstand a wet system.

Anyways, sorry to cross post. I don't know how stringent ya'll are over here with forum rules. Should I split it and post there and here?
D

 

[Dsetz]

Oh your already in motion.
What's the ball park price on the T-T?
I'm hoping to do it like you have and spend minimum $$. Put money into the truck. And all the other vehicles lurking...

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

Ha. There are almost no rules here.

Just head over to general discussion and post the word "CHOWDAH." Won't take long to see what I mean.

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

TT kit is 1000 if I remember (used).

I've been hacking away at it. Megasquirt has been running for quite some time, still dialing it in (can't find a dyno shop that knows megasquirt). Power steering has been converted, methanol has been hooked up, fuel pumps are in, and I'm working on setting the twin throttle body intake as I type this haha. Aerostar serpentine belt parts are here, but hit a snag with the water pump pulley. Small issues at this point.

The first page of my build thread has an incomplete list of modifications. I'll find the link. Has been a lot of work to get it to this point ??

 

[Dsetz]

Multiple AMR's would be absurdly great and I assume louder than sin. Ultimate rice build. Ill leave it to another genius hehe.
That said I am very curious about them and tempted to use an AMR 300 on a 300 cc B&S I'm re-powering a 1967 MF10 garden tractor with. All the power mods for small engines are for high rpm but a mower only sees 3600 and I need more torque from the 10 hp. It is brand new, has a forged crank and ought to handle 4-5 psi sustainably. I think it would be a good excersize in forced induction. And carb sealing haha. Cross fingers for no backfires and mount an extinguisher?

 

[Dsetz]

You were able to order new Aero pullies I assume? That seemed the best route to me.

 

[Dsetz]

The Euro guys are gonna drool over your twin TBI methanol monster. Me too. Looking forward to your build link. Your build will give me wisdom and motivation!

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

Build thread for modification list:

1988 Ranger Restoration - Keeping a Promise

Ok, so just a forewarning, this post is going to be heavily edited, re-written, and changed throughout its construction. This is being written as a post to document the restoration of a truck that was a terrible candidate for restoration, and to offer explanation to others that read my posts...

www.therangerstation.com

 

[1984ranger28]

I'm around. Read this last night.

There's a ton of problems to solve with a build like this.

Really, really bad forced induction idea...

Yes, this is about a 2.9L. No, I'm not just going to put a 4.0L in it. Yes I understand it's easier. Yes I understand the 2.9 is a turd. This is about feasibility, not cost and time effectiveness. ...because I like banging my head against a wall. JEEZE MOM! Ok, now that I've gotten that out...

www.therangerstation.com

The guys here pretty much discussed it in depth. I'm still hacking away at it myself.

If you're going to go fuel injection, Megasquirt/Microsquirt it. Don't even waste your time with FoMoCo parts. Best thing Ive ever done to my Ranger to date was put my EEC-IV in a box and give it to @rusty ol ranger.

If you don't believe me and want a pile of 2.9 MAF sensors, pm me. ?

The other thing I will say is a remote turbocharger would be a MUCH easier build.

That said, it has been done.

View attachment 30436

Anyone know what supercharger is on that 2.8 lol