New Alternator Problems

[RonD]

So the no fire, no start after adding fuel manually is new, to me anyway, lol.

So yes Spark would have to be the first stop, the 2.9l uses a timing CHAIN so compression is not likely the problem.

Get a Test light, just a 12volt light bulb in a easy to use holder
It has a clip on Ground wire and then you just touch probe to connector to see if bulb lights up, very easy to use.
Bulb itself IS A FUSE so no danger of shorting anything out

No Spark is an electrical issue, which is why you need something to tell you if you are getting electricity to Spark system
Clip the test light wire to any metal engine part, or Battery Negative if wire is long enough.
Then touch Probe to battery positive, test light should light up brightly, this is just to test if it is working, I have wasted time using a bad test light before, lol, so I test them each time I will be using them
They are $10-$20, the longer the wire on the test light the better.

Turn on the key
There are 6 fuel injectors, 2 wires each, locate the easiest one to see and touch probe to either wires connector, you should be able to push probe down into the top of the connector on injector.
You should have 12volts there, test light lights up
If not, and key is on, then the EEC Fuse or EEC relay is bad so no power to injectors OR Spark system.

There is one connection between transmission and Spark system, thats the START wire.
On the transmission is the NSS(neutral safety switch), it is located on drivers side just above shifter linkage.
When you turn the Key to START 12volts is sent thru this switch to the Starter Relay on the inner fender and this activates the Starter Motor to crank the engine.
And this is working, the wire between NSS and starter relay....................but there may also be a splice in this wire or two wires on the same connector at the NSS switch.
This second wire runs to the START contact on the TFI module.

Why the second power wire to TFI module?
In the past automakers ran the spark system at 8 or 9 volts, not the 13-14volts that is available when engine is running, this made the points and coils last longer, this was done with a Ballast Resistor or Resistor Wire between ignition switch in RUN and the Spark system.
But to start a COLD engine it is better to have full available voltage for spark.
So in the IGNITION SWITCH there were two pathways to the Spark system
In RUN position the 12volts ran thru ballast resistor to the spark system
In START position the 12v ran directly to spark system, full voltage.

In START position the RUN voltage to spark system is cut off, and visa versa
It was a common issue in the past where engine would start and then die as soon as key moved from START to RUN, a failed ballast resistor, so spark worked in START but power was cut in RUN.
Newer ignition switches don't have this, newer spark systems don't need the ballast resistors, so spark system just gets 12volts in either START or RUN positions

Ford had LOTS of these older style ignition switches, lol, so they used them up, by adding a wire that would provide 12volts to spark system when key was in the START position, the splice to the Starter relay activation wire.
If this wire were damaged then Spark system would have no power while engine was cranking but would in RUN position, so a No Start but all voltages would check out as OK with Key On, RUN position.

Only way to diagnose this is to test START wire at TFI module while someone cranks engine over USING THE KEY
OR..............
Turn key on, RUN position
And jump Starter Relay, activate starter motor without using the key, if TFI has voltage then engine would fire

TFI wiring seen here: http://www.therangerstation.com/how-to/ignition-charging-computers/ford-eec-ivtfi-iv-electronic-engine-control-troubleshooting/

 

[Denisefwd93]

I think by now I would have gone postal If this were my truck!

That is a most excellent guide Ron!
Not too much different from GM's hall effect ignition.

 

[PonyUp]

Whew. This is a brain overload. Maybe bcause I don't really know much about how it all works together. Maybe because I am a one person team and it sounds like much requires 2 people. Maybe because I thought a new alternator was going to tide me over for a few more miles. Maybe because after all of this and more to come, there is a gut feeling something is a root cause being missed. I just keep thinking about why would that fuse blow.

https://www.autosafety.org/ford-tfi-module-national-class-settlement/

I did not let mobile come backout yet. They want to charge me for another trip, marked up parts(distributor/module and time to install.

Power is going to Injectors. Used the test light. Only me and could not use the noid.

#1. So not the computer not sending power to injectors and not the relay under the fuse box, right?

("TFI modules are well known to stop working when they get too hot, coil can as well but rare, so shutting down after 20min of driving should be a TFI issue

After TFI Module cools off it will start working again, so after 10-15minutes, if that doesn't happen then NOT a TFI module issue")

#2. It has been longer than 20 minutes. lol. So maybe the PIP wiring coming out of TFI module harness?

("Only way to diagnose this is to test START wire at TFI module while someone cranks engine over USING THE KEY
OR..............
Turn key on, RUN position
And jump Starter Relay, activate starter motor without using the key, if TFI has voltage then engine would fire")

#3. Jump Starter Relay is chinese to me. I looked at diagram but missing any how to do what with what with any of those wires. Ace oil changer here. lol.

Moved some clients around and I have 2 hours today to go to car and cry while scratching my head. lol.

 

[Denisefwd93]

I know nobody wants to do it, but I don't think you can die from it, you can still hold onto a spark plug wire and if you get a jolt, it usually means you've got ignition, I can't tell you how many times I found that out on the lawn mower

It doesn't matter if it's an old-school magneto, old school points rotor and coil, or high-tech ignition hall effect andor distributorless ignition if you don't have spark, you don't run.

You can also get a spark detector pretty cheap around $10..

https://m.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-tools/ignition-tester/oem-in-line-ignition-spark-tester/900800_0_0?cmpid=PSA:US:EN:AD:NL:1000000:TLS:1700000858&s_kwcid=AL!5142!3!193251454013!!!g!295957264550!&ef_id=W0k4tgAAAJs5OQIT:20180814165720:s

 

[PonyUp]

I know nobody wants to do it, but I don't think you can die from it, you can still hold onto a spark plug wire and if you get a jolt, it usually means you've got ignition, I can't tell you how many times I found that out on the lawn mower

It doesn't matter if it's an old-school magneto, old school points rotor and coil, or high-tech ignition hall effect andor distributorless ignition if you don't have spark, you don't run.

You can also get a spark detector pretty cheap around $10..

https://m.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-tools/ignition-tester/oem-in-line-ignition-spark-tester/900800_0_0?cmpid=PSA:US:EN:AD:NL:1000000:TLS:1700000858&s_kwcid=AL!5142!3!193251454013!!!g!295957264550!&ef_id=W0k4tgAAAJs5OQIT:20180814165720:s

Sounds like this is a 2 person event? Mobile mechanic said it had spark but was not as strong as it should be. Battery is testing good. Hence he was going for coil, distributor/guts and TPS module. I replaced coil to no avail.

But Ron>>("TFI modules are well known to stop working when they get too hot, coil can as well but rare, so shutting down after 20min of driving should be a TFI issue

After TFI Module cools off it will start working again, so after 10-15minutes, if that doesn't happen then NOT a TFI module issue")

("Only way to diagnose this is to test START wire at TFI module while someone cranks engine over USING THE KEY
OR..............
Turn key on, RUN position
And jump Starter Relay, activate starter motor without using the key, if TFI has voltage then engine would fire")

Hence me asking about "jump Starter relay"

Anyone know about the timeing when entire ditributor and module are replaced and does timing have to be reset???

 

[adsm08]

Timing needs to be set any time the distributor is removed or otherwise disturbed.

The easiest way to do this, if you already pulled the distributor, is to get cyl1 to TDC compression by removing the plug, holding a finger over the hole while bumping the engine at the starter relay, and then using the timing marks to get it right on TDC. Then place the dis so the rotor falls between the two marks on the cap mounting face.

Personally, if I know I am going to be taking the dis out, I will remove the cap, then spin the engine around by hand to get the rotor lined up between those marks. Saves a lot of the fussing trying to find compression stroke and all.

 

[Denisefwd93]

You need two people to put a light on a spark plug wire and crank the engine? You should be able to see the light if not do it in the dark.

So based on that article about Ford hiding the problems with the TFI module are you going to replace it or research it?

Check with the experts, but you should be able to jump the two large terminals on the solenoid relay to crank the engine.

 

[PonyUp]

Engines cranks. Won't start. You saying by do a jump starter does what, just gets it to crank as it already does? Going to go get the spark light. Will try that. Thanks.

 

[Denisefwd93]

I don't know where it is on your Bronco. on my truck, it's inside top of the fender just above the relay & fuse box. battery hot goes in & out and to the starter you jump those two big terminals, the starter will crank; with a key is on or ff (please correct me if I'm wrong). You have to use something heavy it makes a big spark and it's scary to the non-experienced.

Engines cranks. Won't start. You saying by do a jump starter does what, just gets it to crank as it already does? Going to go get the spark light. Will try that. Thanks.

 

[PonyUp]

Not going to try it if it is to crank engine. Engine already cranks. No spark at spark plug using the light you suggested. No power to coil harness and no power to injector harness when there was before. Fuses have power to them and headlights/dash works. My brain is fried and I can't miss any more work. Calling tow truck in the morning. Talked to a guy at a family owned garage that I used 35 years ago when I lived outside of this town. Used GrandP, Dad and now going to let the son/grandson work it. He is in his early 30 and he thinks there is a strong possibility of a short doing all of this. Thanks to all of you for your kind and generous sharing. Most certainly the knowledge/education as well. I will learn that alt meter.

 

[adsm08]

Engines cranks. Won't start. You saying by do a jump starter does what, just gets it to crank as it already does? Going to go get the spark light. Will try that. Thanks.

Over by the battery is a large relay with two large posts (it may be under a plastic cover). You can touch a screw driver to the two large posts and the engine will crank. If you do it with the key on you have a one-man spark test.

 

[PonyUp]

Thanks. I will check that before calling truck in the morning but even when it had spark, it would crack but not start. I am still feeling ....a short because of no power to things I mentioned in last post and now I know longer hear fuel relay click and pump him as. I did before.

 

[adsm08]

Before doing anything more, turn the key on and try cranking it with a screw driver.

I had an issue in my 87 where it would crank all day and rarely start with the key, but it would fire off with the screw driver every time. It was a bad splice for starting power to the TFI. Cranking it with the screw driver would get it started because there was no issue with key on power to the module, only from the starting post for cranking.

 

[PonyUp]

Thanks for suggestion.I will try that in the morning. It is about 50 miles from where I live. How would that do much good though since relay/fuel pump is no longer heard? All those days and checks>>>that relay and pump came on. Now....nothing.

 

[Denisefwd93]

Thr transmission shop going to let you have it towed out if they're not paid?

I think if there's pressure in the fuel lines you won't hear the pump because it's already up to pressure the experts would know better than me.

Thanks for suggestion.I will try that in the morning. It is about 50 miles from where I live. How would that do much good though since relay/fuel pump is no longer heard? All those days and checks>>>that relay and pump came on. Now....nothing.