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Engine setup question?


guzzirider

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93 XLT XCab with 4.0

I am thinking of setting up my motor with Hedman Headers 89400, MagnaFlow 23388 Cat, Flowmaster 17159 Exhaust Systems, MSD Ignition 31119 Wires and ACCEL 140035 Coils. I have a K&N filter on now, but I am thing about drilling 5 1” dia holes in my air box and putting a pre-filter liner on the inside of the air box lid for more are flow.

I am going to order it from Summit.:icon_welder:

So what do you think? I think I will push 33” up a hill. LOL.
 


Big Jim M

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93 XLT XCab with 4.0

I am thinking of setting up my motor with Hedman Headers 89400, MagnaFlow 23388 Cat, Flowmaster 17159 Exhaust Systems, MSD Ignition 31119 Wires and ACCEL 140035 Coils. I have a K&N filter on now, but I am thing about drilling 5 1” dia holes in my air box and putting a pre-filter liner on the inside of the air box lid for more are flow.

I am going to order it from Summit.:icon_welder:

So what do you think? I think I will push 33” up a hill. LOL.
So what do you think? I think I will push 33” up a hill.

Not any better than it does now.... Unless you change gears and raise the rpm Which I assume you are doing now.

Everything you outlined won't change a thing until you get waaay up there in rpm. If it is running without missing the coil and wires will be zackly the same as the ones on there now.

If the K&N is truly giving more air, the computer will add more fuel.. resulting in higher compression..which in turn will cause the engine to clatter. When it clatters the knock sensor will retard the timing... the result of which will be LESS POWER..

The factory stuff will do anything required by these wonderful engines..

Big Jim:icon_thumby:

Big JIm
 

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So explain to me how adding more air and more fuel will increase compression????
 

guzzirider

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Ok, that is why i asked. I guess this is not my old CJ. LOL

I think I have 4:10 in the range and that is what I have in my CJ and it is on 33. do I need to change the renger?
 

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If you want it to preform and get decent gas mileage you will want the gears.

You'll want 4.56's or 4.88's if you plan on going to a larger tire.
 

Big Jim M

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I can handle that!

So explain to me how adding more air and more fuel will increase compression????
Your engine is designed to have a certain Ve..volumetric efficiency.. to attain a certain compression ratio. If somehow you find a way to change the flow in such a manner that MORE air/fuel gets into the cylinder, you have changed the Ve. Changing that will increase the compression ratio. Having a higher compression ratio immediately causes the engine to knock...the knock sensor then retards the timing. So now you have reduced power...even though you have increased the intake flow.

Just another reason to doubt the posts made about the damn K&N's..

Junk is just junk! There ain't no other way to say it.

Big JIm:wub::hottubfun:
 

shadetree

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Your engine is designed to have a certain Ve..volumetric efficiency.. to attain a certain compression ratio. If somehow you find a way to change the flow in such a manner that MORE air/fuel gets into the cylinder, you have changed the Ve. Changing that will increase the compression ratio. Having a higher compression ratio immediately causes the engine to knock...the knock sensor then retards the timing. So now you have reduced power...even though you have increased the intake flow.

Just another reason to doubt the posts made about the damn K&N's..

Junk is just junk! There ain't no other way to say it.

Big JIm:wub::hottubfun:
:icon_twisted::icon_twisted::icon_twisted:shady
 

AllanD

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This arguement comes up all the time how people believe that larger intake piping will deliver more air to the engine....

Theoretically yes, in practical reality? No.

the engine can only use what the valves and cam timing will let in and
you can actually flow that much air through a hole about 1.5" in diameter.

So cutting holes into the air box will only serve to let in warm engine
compartment air and dust and dirt stirred up by the cooling fan.




AD
 

GuzziriderJR

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Your engine is designed to have a certain Ve..volumetric efficiency.. to attain a certain compression ratio. If somehow you find a way to change the flow in such a manner that MORE air/fuel gets into the cylinder, you have changed the Ve. Changing that will increase the compression ratio. Having a higher compression ratio immediately causes the engine to knock...the knock sensor then retards the timing. So now you have reduced power...even though you have increased the intake flow.

Just another reason to doubt the posts made about the damn K&N's..

Junk is just junk! There ain't no other way to say it.

Big JIm:wub::hottubfun:
Just a point on this subject I have seen dyno sheets performed on a ALL stock car with the OEM air filter and then with a K&N and you do gain power a small amount but a gain none the less. And yes it was in a newer vehicle with all the new "computers" that adjust for air and fuel ratios. This is also been proven in my automotive class.
 

Yellowsplash

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Your engine is designed to have a certain Ve..volumetric efficiency.. to attain a certain compression ratio. If somehow you find a way to change the flow in such a manner that MORE air/fuel gets into the cylinder, you have changed the Ve. Changing that will increase the compression ratio. Having a higher compression ratio immediately causes the engine to knock...the knock sensor then retards the timing. So now you have reduced power...even though you have increased the intake flow.

Just another reason to doubt the posts made about the damn K&N's..

Junk is just junk! There ain't no other way to say it.

Big JIm:wub::hottubfun:

It doesnt change the compression ratio, but rather cylinder pressure. The more air that packs inside the cylinder, the more power that is made, until you reach the limits of detonation (which is dependent upon combustion chambers design, octane or fuel, material, etc.) Volumetric Efficiency is just that, efficiency...the higher the better all other variables held constant. Adding a K&N filter is not going to induce knock, nor is it going to increase VE substantially. The reason K&Ns have a bad rep is because people dont properly oil them and the oil draws itself onto the MAF sensor element causing lean readings, and therefore detonation...in no way shape or form caused by the increase in VE and/or the ecu not being able to compensate for the little increase in flow.

In saying that, Im not an advocate of K&N filters, nor do I claim they will increase power. To each their own....

To the OP: I would also refrain from drilling holes in the filter housing as it will only draw in warm air as said above. If you need the additional power to push 33s you want gears (4.56) to properly transmit the torque you crave to the ground...
 
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Big Jim M

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Since the aim of most addons is to give more power, and most advertise better airflow, etc. If any of them actually DO put more air/fuel into the cylinder...wouldn't that in effect change the Ve? Simply because there IS more air/fuel in there?

Also since Ford builds these things so close to the maximum compression ratio wouldn't more air/fuel in the cylinder raise the compression beyond the limits of the engineering and then cause the dreaded ping?

My point was that if any of these doodads actually did what they are SUPPOSED to do the engine wouldn't run as good as it does without them.

Big JIm:wub::hottubfun:

It doesnt change the compression ratio, but rather cylinder pressure. The more air that packs inside the cylinder, the more power that is made, until you reach the limits of detonation (which is dependent upon combustion chambers design, octane or fuel, material, etc.) Volumetric Efficiency is just that, efficiency...the higher the better all other variables held constant. Adding a K&N filter is not going to induce knock, nor is it going to increase VE substantially. The reason K&Ns have a bad rep is because people dont properly oil them and the oil draws itself onto the MAF sensor element causing lean readings, and therefore detonation...in no way shape or form caused by the increase in VE and/or the ecu not being able to compensate for the little increase in flow.

In saying that, Im not an advocate of K&N filters, nor do I claim they will increase power. To each their own....

To the OP: I would also refrain from drilling holes in the filter housing as it will only draw in warm air as said above. If you need the additional power to push 33s you want gears (4.56) to properly transmit the torque you crave to the ground...
 

Yellowsplash

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What you are saying is that the whole theory of aftermarket addons and increasing power is a conspiracy. Think about what you are saying.... If it were, would people still be spending money on increasing the power output of their engines?

And if there is more air in the cylinder then that is a good thing. Increasing Volumetric Efficiency (remember, efficient is good) is the whole goal of modifying an engine. As we all know, tuning an engine is all about balancing, giving up something for more of something else. Simply put, you cant have it all and a free lunch too. The ford engineers designed the cam to give the broadest power curve in the area where most truck drivers need it. Thats down low. Unfortunately, we have to give something up for a broad torque curve....in this case that happens to be airflow. Short duration and low lift cams that make great power off idle dont flow very good, but offer a broad torque curve for most street drivers. Dont expect it to make power above 4500 rpms. Wonder why the ports are small? Now its all starting to come together. More velocity with smaller ports, small cam, great off idle power, but not very high airflow. Thats exactly what it delivers and it works for millions of people, but increasing the VE of the engine is a good thing that wont hurt it at all, but infact will help it. However, a K&N is not going to change much in the department of VE. Why you ask, well, the airfilter is not the bottle neck of the system of these engine. (remember the small cam and small ports). While a K&N might give the engine quicker throttle response or might make 5 hp up top at say 4500rpm where VE has dropped near 70%, its not really changing much. The ecu has no problem adding fuel where needed, thats whats so great about fuel injection. It has a MAF to meter the air, and fuel trims to fine tune the mixture. You dont have to do a thing.

You using the term "compression ratio" is misguiding. Compression ratio is static in that it doesnt change. It is all dependent upon piston dome design, combustion chamber size, and head gasket thickness. What changes is cylinder pressure (dynamic compression) by the cams timing events and engines instantaneous rpm. This is how people can run 12.5 and higher compression pistons in vehicles. The late closing of the intake valve helps to bleed some compression off. A high duration cam actually requires a higher compression ratio in order to idle. Bleeding off too much causes a low compression stroke and therefore inefficient combustion not allowing the motor to idle. Let me get back to my point... Ford doesnt build these things close to their maximum compression ratio, infact, im not even sure where your trying to go with that. Most 90s engines have an average CR of 9:1 (4.0 OHV is 9:1), however, today its closer to 10:1 (4.0 SOHC is 9.7). Wonder why, efficiency. Higher CR gives better throttle response, more power, better efficiency, and most important to auto manufacturers, better gas mileage. Ford increased the CR but they still run fine, in fact, much better than prior engines. Your right in the fact that higher cylinder pressure increases cylinder temps (measured by EGT), and therefore can cause detonation, but not by a K&N. Not gonna happen. If we were talking about forced induction, yes, more air forced into the combustion chamber will raise cylinder pressure and might detonate. Higher octane would remedy this. But more importantly, its not the increase in cylinder pressure that induces knock, but rather the increase in cylinder temperature (compressed air from turbo/blower is hot air). Add some meth to cool it down and cylinder pressure wont mean a thing.
 
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Big Jim M

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Yellowsplash I think we are both arguing the same points. All my posting has to do with the K&N and similar add-ons not doing much if anything at all FOR our engines.
If the airflow was improved then the result would be more fuel mixture inside the cylinder than the Ford engineering considered probable.

Say the engineering considered an 80% VE. With a K&N and a TB spacer (yuck) the VE is increased to 90%. This would be what I'm thinking the guys that purchase these type products THINK they will be getting. This would obviously improve engine output.. but the detonation would quickly retard the timing and the result would be negligible.

My posting is saying the add-ons do little if anything at all for normal streeting of a vehicle. In many instances the add-ons actually reduce drivability... and for sure longevity.

To truly increase power one needs to consider the heads, stroke and choosing a camshaft with the needed amount of lift, duration and particularly the overlap needed to perform the intended use of the engine. Then matching the intake and exhaust to work with the capabilities of that particular built engine.

I don't think we are disagreeing.

Big JIm
 

Yellowsplash

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Its not that a K&N wont increase flow, it will, just not significantly on a stock engine. It might give the engine quicker throttle response and/or might make 5 hp up top at peak hp, but dont expect huge gains on an rbv. A K&N's filter element will outflow a paper filter hands down. Whats more relevant is when the paper filter becomes a restriction, which its not on a completely stock rbv. Saying that, a K&N is a great supporting mod, and with other modifications will help to maximize gain on a modified vehicle.

I run K&N filters in all my cars, just personal preference. Theres nothing wrong with a consumer buying one with the intention of never having to buy another filter again, assuming they know how to clean and oil it correctly. It wont affect drivability, nor longetivity, assuming it was installed correctly (I need to say that because not everyone was made to be a mechanic, it shows in their work). The increase in air wont induce knock. Only when oil gets on the MAF sensor element will it cause any negative side effects, but thats operator error. To sum it up, K&N's arent junk, theyre different for every vehicle and media hype has consumers misinformed. Everyone has their own opinion, and their entitled to that, but they should understand why.

My point was to correct your reasoning...But your completely right about throttle body spacers....waste of your hard earned cash.
 

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