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Natural gas vs gas and diesel engine ...


Stxrangerbumper

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Would there be an advantage converting our trucks to CNG? It would reduce Nitrogen oxides (NOx) very significantly, no doubt about it. CNG and diesel are equals in terms of carbon dioxide emissions. You have to find other reasons to favor one or the other.I wonder if he has another way to convert an engine gas into a source of energy more economical mileage the each other.
 


Stxrangerbumper

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Oil is imported, sometimes from unfriendly countries, whereas natural gas is plentiful in the US, with proven reserves that can last for several decades.
 

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I think most auto makers have come to realize the future is not in fossil fuels at all.

With the increasing work being put into electric and hydrogen cars, among other technologies, I dont see the infrastructure for widespread natural gas use being implemented.

Also, the fact the natural gas is there doesn't mean we can access all of it, and the typical method of extracting natural gas (fracking) is coming into question as being a potential environmental hazard. Waterways close to natural gas mining operations are almost always polluted and destroyed.

Not only that, public drinking water is even being effected in some places, to the point that you can LIGHT WATER ON FIRE!.... thats pretty F'ed up.

edit - not a joke. http://my.firedoglake.com/ruthcalvo/2010/12/09/big-downside-to-fracking-flammable-water/
And not a one-time event either. Happens all the time.
 

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CNG can be run in a conventional gas engine, but has far less energy than a gallon of gasoline This means that your emissions per mile are not much better.

Diesel fuel is not compatible with a regular gas engine, but has more energy per a given unit of volume. It also has the best emissions qualities in a properly tuned engine. Lot more work but it has benefits.
 

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Best thing about diesel techonolgy, is that the fuel can be home grown. And the diesel engine can run on just about anything of a BTU value. Researchers are trying to find ways to make bio-diesel out of algea. The most simplest plant form and use the algea to asborb CO2 from the atmosphere, so its almost a carbon neutral fuel. And it doesn't take much to grow the algea. The problem is exacting the oil substance from the algea.

I see gasoline as a dying fuel. CNG has potenial, but would require a nation wide retrofit of fueling stations and vehicles. Biodiesel can be easily converted over current fueling stations, but the consumer would need the vehicle to make it work
 

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I think most auto makers have come to realize the future is not in fossil fuels at all.

With the increasing work being put into electric and hydrogen cars, among other technologies, I dont see the infrastructure for widespread natural gas use being implemented.

Also, the fact the natural gas is there doesn't mean we can access all of it, and the typical method of extracting natural gas (fracking) is coming into question as being a potential environmental hazard. Waterways close to natural gas mining operations are almost always polluted and destroyed.

Not only that, public drinking water is even being effected in some places, to the point that you can LIGHT WATER ON FIRE!.... thats pretty F'ed up.
Of course most electric in the US is generated with fossil fuels, and most hydrogen production is from NG. Neither of these is likely to change any time soon.
 

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Of course most electric in the US is generated with fossil fuels, and most hydrogen production is from NG. Neither of these is likely to change any time soon.
Worse yet, there have been no new nuclear plants built since the TMI incident.
 

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you could shoe-horn in one of the military multi-fuel engines that will burn diesel, cooking oil, kerosene, av-gas, jet-a, gasoline, etc. actually just about any liquid that will burn.
yep, that's a build i'd like to see!
 

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Gasoline is the most efficient of all mentioned fuels.
BTU's is where it is at !

bio-diesel requires fossil fuels to make the end product...
So where exactly are you using less fossil fuels ?

Enviro-mental wackos will tell you that electric , bio-diesel etc are the wave of the future ...
These are tools to FORCE YOU to BUY INFERIOR products for top dollar

Example is when times are tough , I tell m wife to shop wisely
She brings home some bargain brand laundry detergent that uses 3 times the amount to produce even close to the same results as the name brand .
 

bobbywalter

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its funny about home grown fuel. the algae is interesting, but has its own array of disaster potentials, one serious issue simply from it being engineered and then escaping containment......farm crops or land used to grow other non food crops instead of food is not really a great idea.. if butanol was the direct goal it would be one thing, but for myself ethanol and bio-diesel are not so easy to accept after some some time to look farther down the line and with what has already proved out since the 80's.......well none of the current options are ideal for our i.c.e. fleet over the long term. food crops should only fuel people directly as commercially produced. making your own fuel from your own land is great imo in any event. but wasting food on transportaion via machine i now find patently retarded. theres more oil and gas in this northern american continent then needed to maintain status quo for home grown fuel past our grandchildren, but it(oil is mostly in canada btw) is being bought by asia amongst others and rightly so these days.


presently the most abundant home grown fuel.... direct automotive fuel..... we have in the usa, seems to be natural gas. its here and ready in most areas. many in the n/e still heat with diesel which is pathetic, but it is what it is distribution wise and not cost effective to use natural gas in those areas...i hope that changes rapidly over the next ten years.

i looked into this direct comparison as titled. heavily at one point, as the technology was readily available and cheap, still is to a point. i regret not buying the systems and vehicles.

my current main source of income is in oil and gas exploration... i actually drill oil and gas wells, the primary well type that we work with is natural gas in michigan, but obviously we work just about anywhere. recently i have had opportunity and discussed some issues with the top man from a mid level national operator.

my main complaint is the lack of cheap compressor capacity for the home user. i need something for my base and something that is mobile, and not with an out of reach price tag. i pressed for this to be a goal of all of the operators....they cry about the price being down, when minimal infrastructure investment will benefit all over the long haul and short term.. :dunno:

this guy just like everybody in nat gas is losing his ass having to drill wells in other areas of the country because of contracting issues due to the states actual operating rules that the various operators are operating in(for protection of us all in most accounts). but not always.. good for union types, bad for companies that end up folded because of it. i have been to areas that always had "firewater" long before columbus found america and fire grounds. pollution issues will always exist directly from drilling, but some of the recent things are stacked ridiculously. "fracing" a zone 8000 feet below a watersource doesnt do shit to groundwater. it cant. a casing failure in a groundwater zone could though. there is no direct correlation to this from the fracing, but disposal of produced water in different zones i suspect is the likely cause for complaints.

of course these big picture guys dont realize theres many many people like me and even more that are curios to the issue just like Stxrangerbumper that will and can easily convert their vehicles to operate on natural gas. this is easily done just buying used municipal or fleet vehicles...a few auction hunts can prove to be a cost effective way to get a natural gas or duel fuel vehicle.

this is a good fuel source to ease some factors, but not a forever fuel either.


i tried the veggie oil, besides being alot of work, getting the oil was not easy where i was.

that pushed me into waste oils like motor, tranny, hydraulic, types of machine tool oils etc..

these oils where i currently live and in many places are getting hard to get in consistant quantities. just like the waste vegetable oils, the waste oils from machines that was always free and easy....well the shit goes for up to 90 cents a gallon now. and the 90 cent stuff is the stuff i need.


so, back to where i started when looking for a better way to power my ranger. natural gas right at the house. of course, this would skyrocket rapidly if the demand increased heavily.

so i am looking to run both natural gas and wmo in my diesel powered vehicles at the same time and hope to have this ability sooner then later, and setup a duel fuel gasoline/ng system in one of my other vehicles.

so, i swapped a diesel into my rig to have an affordable daily driver. works great. the alternate fuels is use for it is crazy as its availability varies widely. but all in all, is is very very cost effective compared to my small blocks in the exact same chassis.

but, i am now thinking of a current 6.2 gm or ford swap with natural gas as the main fuel but also able to run gasoline and ethanol as well..


i can say one thing only that i feel is certain. shit is always changing.

you directly ask the question as a matter of being able to save on the cost of personal mobility--cost effectively i assume---.


and, whatever the most cost effective thing is i can do, is usually what i do. not because i want to, but because i have too.


diesel, natural gas and electric seem to be the first steps away from refining gasoline. but i am not willing to bet on it.


a vehicle that can run on propane, natural gas, gasolines/ethanols, and electric only if need be seems to be the best way to go. thats a real hybrid multifuel vehicle in my eyes.
 

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Gasoline is the most efficient of all mentioned fuels.
BTU's is where it is at !

bio-diesel requires fossil fuels to make the end product...
So where exactly are you using less fossil fuels ?

Enviro-mental wackos will tell you that electric , bio-diesel etc are the wave of the future ...
These are tools to FORCE YOU to BUY INFERIOR products for top dollar

Example is when times are tough , I tell m wife to shop wisely
She brings home some bargain brand laundry detergent that uses 3 times the amount to produce even close to the same results as the name brand .


if the process energy is generated by renewable fuels, its a n/a issue.


regardless.....
producing 100000 gallons of biodiesel with 10000 gallons of fossil fuel is a huge reduction of fossil fuel. or isnt it:icon_confused:
 

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a vehicle that can run on propane, natural gas, gasolines/ethanols, and electric only if need be seems to be the best way to go. thats a real hybrid multifuel vehicle in my eyes.

the military has had multi-fuel vehicles for years....you can pick up a deuce-and-a half for around 3-4k with 30,000 miles on it... it awnsers the question of, "if i had to have ONE vehicle that could take me to hell and back and run on anything i find along the way what would it be?"
 

bobbywalter

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the military has had multi-fuel vehicles for years....you can pick up a deuce-and-a half for around 3-4k with 30,000 miles on it... it awnsers the question of, "if i had to have ONE vehicle that could take me to hell and back and run on anything i find along the way what would it be?"
my vehicle is multi-fuel.....:icon_thumby:


and it is the vehicle that takes me to hell and back
 

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other than the source issues for CNG (here in Oregon, only the state and natural gas companies have access, the one source in the Portland area stopped supplying because the demand was low and cost to compress was too great), there's the power difference, you loose about 15% power with CNG over propane, where propane is nearly identical to gasoline in lower RPM uses. Part of the power problem on a simple setup for NG engines is using a carburetor the fuel required displaces a lot of air the engine could be consuming. We set up fuel systems at work, we have a GM 5.7L that's injected on CNG, runs good, but we have to go through hoops to get our tanks filled to test the thing...

I'd rather run propane if I had to choose an alternative fuel... I don't have much experience with diesel but I'm a fan too... If I could afford it I'd build a crawler around the 8.1L fuel injected propane engine we have at work... something about 500ftlb torque from 800-2800rpm sounds like it would work well :)
 

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Best thing about diesel techonolgy, is that the fuel can be home grown. And the diesel engine can run on just about anything of a BTU value. Researchers are trying to find ways to make bio-diesel out of algea. The most simplest plant form and use the algea to asborb CO2 from the atmosphere, so its almost a carbon neutral fuel. And it doesn't take much to grow the algea. The problem is exacting the oil substance from the algea.

I see gasoline as a dying fuel. CNG has potenial, but would require a nation wide retrofit of fueling stations and vehicles. Biodiesel can be easily converted over current fueling stations, but the consumer would need the vehicle to make it work
You can get gasoline from algea too.

It only takes care of half the problem, the raw product. There are still emissions to deal with.

The only way to get around that little bugger is electric car running on wind generated juice.
 

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