Preparing for 5.0 swap, what issues am I likely to encounter?

[JoshT]

I honestly don’t remember what size the stock pipes are. When we did dad’s, we just had the Explorer exhaust to past the cats. When I did mine, all I had were two stubs off the manifold because someone cut the cats off the donor. For mine I put the stubs on the headers and drove it to the local exhaust shop (custom shop). Handed over my universal high-flow cats and crossover muffler and told them I wanted 2.5” stainless (rust is a problem here). We used the same shop years ago doing dad’s. Since I only wanted to do exhaust once, I needed to have the suspension work done so they could make sure everything cleared. It’s a tight squeeze when it’s lowered with the Explorer goodies. Aluminized steel gets you about 2-3 years around here with rust.

I've seen 10-15 year old aluminized pipes that still look good around here. I understand and agree with you on doing the exhaust once. Unfortunately both of the exhaust shops I've used in the past are gone now. The latter of the two that did my F-100 back in 2019 was only about a half mile from where I'm going to be doing the swap at. I think my best option will be cobbling something to use temporarily until I get the suspension figured out. I definitely have one Explorer exhaust past the cats, maybe the whole system, but it's on the rusty Ohio donor so who knows the real condition. I should have a second cat section that is decent shape and should be able to pick up a muffler or two and a few bends to get my by for a bit.

As for the shift kit, I was going to do it, but ran out of money and time. I’m not happy with the 4R70w in stock form. I said something to @holyford86 when he was visiting and after he took it for a test drive, he agreed it’s a tad sloppy. There doesn’t seem to be as much that can be done to these compared to the A4LD, which is probably a good thing that there’s less flaws, lol. From what I’ve seen, it appears there’s a basic shift kit, a performance shift kit, and a manual valve body conversion and shift kit. There’s also a couple things mentioned on the Explorer forum, but the tech article there is kinda incomplete. At some point in the relatively near future I intend to get the performance shift kit. Just not happy with the sloppy shifting.

Shift kit is going to happen, just not right now. I know that the donor drives and shifts, it did 100 miles at highway speeds bring it home. If I swap it in as is and it stops working, I know it isn't because I messed up something in the transmission.

The AWD donor has about 180K on the odometer, no records on maintenance so I'll assume that's accurite for everything. It's shifting good not, but when I build the next motor the transmission will be getting rebuilt and probably beefed up in anticipation of future dumb ideas.

If I decide I need it, adding a shift kit shouldn't be that difficult to do after the swap. I have a buddy that runs his own automotive shop and has experience with rebuilding ford transmissions. I'm not going to tie up his shop with the swap, but with his help and lift it probably wouldn't take long to do a shift kit.

Oh, and the headers don’t fit setting a complete engine. Well, maybe if you pull the steering shaft and the ac/heater box. I had to take I think the drivers side header back off and do some wiggling and all to get the engine set with one header on. Can’t remember if I pulled the steering shaft or not. I did set engine and trans in one go on both swaps, I didn’t want to be trying to do bellhousing and torque converter bolts in the truck. Even with the core support out of the way, it’s a squeeze. The first one we did we used a machine and didn’t pull the core support. That was a riot. May or may not have worked easier. Certainly messier.

Thank you for that info. When i mentioned fitting the headers above I was only thinking about mounting them so I could tweak the EGR tube to fit, then remove before installing. After posting that the idea did cross my mind to try installing engine with headers on. Glad I didn't waste my time with that. It sounds like I'd rather install them in the bay than do the extra work to drop them in with the engine.

Wasn't planning to remove the core support, and won't unless it bolt's in, but I did figure on having all of the cooling system and the accessory drive system removed. Wasn't sure whether to try dropping it in with the transmission attached or not. Now I'm thinking maybe have the transmission attached and install the transfer case after I drop it in. It would be easier than messing with the torque converter and bellhousing bolts in the truck. If I do it before I lower the truck, I should be able to get a good angle for dropping it in.

IIRC, factory manifold bolts are 3/8” coarse thread. Mine came out fine. Other bolts were a problem (intake, valve cover, water pump). You will want header bolts for the smaller head. I tried socket head bolts and had to use a ball end long socket Allen to get around the header pipes to get it together. Think I had to go to 1” long header bolts.

I'm hoping I won't need to mess with anything other than possibly upper intake bolts, exhaust manifold bolts, and accessory mounting hardware. Hoping I won't need to mess with lower intake valve covers or oil pan on this engine.

I'll have to open up the headers and see what they have for hardware. I know I'm going to be getting better gaskets than they came with, might have to throw some header bolts in that order as well.

Oh, I had all of the accessories off the front of the motor when I set it, bolted up that stuff after, made for less stuff to work around setting it. I also left the upper intake off.

That's the plan!

 

[JoshT]

A shift kit or j mod perks up the shifting a lot. I have a 00 mountaineer with a 5.0 & then have my ranger with the engine/tranny out of a 96 explorer that has been j modded. It shifts so much harder/faster than the 00. The later 4r70’s had more improvements than the earlier but enlarging a few holes & replacing a few accumulator springs makes a big difference. Be prepared to break some bolts. I’m in South Carolina so no rust issues here & I recently swapped cams. Broke 2 in the timing cover & 3 lower intake. So change anything you plan on doing while the motor is out. If you think you want a different cam do it while it’s out too.

Shift kit and cam are definitely happening, just hopefully not right now.

As I said above, transmission works so I don't want to mess with inside of it before the swap. At some point the transmission will be coming back out to get rebuilt for the next motor, or I'll pick up another one to build and swap in. If I feel like it needs something before then, I'll handle it then.

A cam is definitely going to happen when I build that second engine to swap in. The only way it happens before the swap is if I need to remove heads. I'm really hoping that won't happen. Only reason I can see it being needed is if I have to get broken bolts exhaust removed.

 

[holyford86]

As for the shift kit, I was going to do it, but ran out of money and time. I’m not happy with the 4R70w in stock form. I said something to @holyford86 when he was visiting and after he took it for a test drive, he agreed it’s a tad sloppy. There doesn’t seem to be as much that can be done to these compared to the A4LD, which is probably a good thing that there’s less flaws, lol. From what I’ve seen, it appears there’s a basic shift kit, a performance shift kit, and a manual valve body conversion and shift kit. There’s also a couple things mentioned on the Explorer forum, but the tech article there is kinda incomplete. At some point in the relatively near future I intend to get the performance shift kit. Just not happy with the sloppy shifting.

yours isn't necessarily sloppier than they are normally, it just feels to me that the shifts out of the 4r70 are far softer and sloppier than I'm used to. I work on loads of stuff with 5r110s and 6r140s (including in 31k GVW 7.3 Godzilla powered school buses) and also lots of other things with more modern 6+ speed autos, so my opinion might be bad. A couple years ago I did a 4r70 to 5r110 conversion on a 5.4 powered E350 cargo van, nothing else was changed drivetrain wise and the difference was insane.

 

[Bigmatthew86]

Those trannys compared to a 4r aren’t really fair lol. That being said the 4r70 can take a lot of power. They also can be improved with a shift kit (valve body work) & tuning. If you haven’t driven one with that done it’s a huge difference. A j mod is really free, so if you have the tranny out I’d drop the pan & just do it.

 

[JoshT]

A j mod is really free, so if you have the tranny out I’d drop the pan & just do it.

I get what you are saying. Really, I do. However, as I said before, the transmission works as is and if I don't touch anything internal it should work the same after the swap. If I start monkeying with stuff inside the transmission I could cause problems. As such I am not going to do anything that could affect how it works until after the swap is completed.

 

[Bigmatthew86]

100%. I was just letting you know there’s hope. I wouldn’t be happy with how the stock tranny shifts either, in a more hot rod style build.

 

[fastpakr]

The last I looked, there wasn't a consensus on the proper mods for a JMOD on the version of the valve body in the Explorer version of the 4R70W anyway.

 

[Bigmatthew86]

Yeah they’re kinda all over the place. Sure fire is just grab a 4r70 car valve body to be sure. Not free but you can get them pretty cheap.

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

yours isn't necessarily sloppier than they are normally, it just feels to me that the shifts out of the 4r70 are far softer and sloppier than I'm used to. I work on loads of stuff with 5r110s and 6r140s (including in 31k GVW 7.3 Godzilla powered school buses) and also lots of other things with more modern 6+ speed autos, so my opinion might be bad. A couple years ago I did a 4r70 to 5r110 conversion on a 5.4 powered E350 cargo van, nothing else was changed drivetrain wise and the difference was insane.

I would agree that it’s not really any sloppier than normal. Just that after having done a shift kit and valve body work in my 92 Ranger and seeing the massive difference in how it acted, I’m pretty disappointed in having a “normal” transmission.

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

Oh, and transfer case does have to come off. You’ll have enough fun dealing with the engine and transmission together and there’s lots of things to snag on. I’ve pulled the transfer case off every time, even on the Ranger stuff. When I pulled the 4.0 out of my 2000 to start the swap, I dropped the transfer case and pulled engine/trans one shot. I wouldn’t mind doing them separate so much if I had a garage and lift. One day that will change though.

 

[JoshT]

You know, now that I think about, I've never pulled the transmission out of a newer Ranger. The 99's transmission has been out for rebuild many years ago, but I didn't do it. I've pulled the engine out of it a couple of times, just never the transmission. I pulled engine and transmission out of my 84 separately, the transmission when I first got it for a clutch, then the engine several years later for a rebuild.

 

[bobbywalter]

The 6 speed is perfect for the 302.


Getting good 4r70 parts isn't easy anymore either.

A proper working 4r70 is a great unit compared to anything before it was developed.

I have built a few and a lot of AODs.

So....I can see just putting it together to get going and see where it takes you

Not wasting time and money on the 4r70 if it's working fine and just saving and working towards the 6r is smarter to me. Or maybe the 4r70 you will find is good enough for what you do.

 

[rubydist]

If you put in a 6 speed, how do you do transmission controls?

 

[JoshT]

If you put in a 6 speed, how do you do transmission controls?

Good question. I would think either need to run a transmission controller, or a full aftermarket EFI system that can handle it. A standalone US Shift or maybe Microsquirt to handle just the transmission. Holley EFI or Mega Squirt system to completely replace the original EFI and control both.

Not dismissing the idea of either of those setups or the 6R80 eventually, but both are well beyond the scope of this stage of the project.

 

[bobbywalter]

Unfortunately....
We are leaving the era of the 6 speed as well. ....you can say this about the 302 windsors....4r70w gen 3 LS...as well...because they are drying up for cheap and easy and decent miles. but the 6r80 It is awesome and in relatives its unbelievable how it can change the usability of a 5.0. it is sad that so few people utilized this goldmine of value.

but you are here....and still doing this sort of swap. it is worth detailing.


i say this because this is the most cost effective way to handle serious hp and best overall gearing.

the quick 6 controller seems overpriced for something you will buy that can be 12-1400 dollars to run a 4-600 dollar transmission.... paying 3 times as much for the controller as a good transmission may cost, seems like a dumb idea.

unless...

or untill you realize a 6r can handle 800 to 1000 hp with just tuning.

to be clear there are upgrades one will want to do. and those are well known these days.


but the point is ....for a 5.0 it is stronger then any streetable unit.... and amplifies the typical boltons one does to a windsor and changes the experience. you can not spend any amount of money on a 4r70 and exceed the usability of the 6r.





i will try to get curt to provide specific detail. he has this combination in a ttb truck and it is as good as one can expect. the value to dollar is all win.

i myself will likely be using this unit in my ranger if i decide not to build a new truck. and my ranger has a v8 diesel.