SOLVED: Engine dies when spout is removed — possible cm code 14- pip & code 63 tps

[Dustin_89BII]

Hi folks,

I’d love some help with this one. None of the other posts I’ve seen have quite address what I’m experiencing.

I just rebuilt and reinstalled the 2.9 in my 1989 bronco II.

I got through initial engine break-in well and now I’m trying to set base timing (10 degrees advanced with spout removed on a warm engine). However, when I removed the spout the engine dies immediately. No stutter, no slow die with cascading rpm, just instantly like the key was turned off.

The engine runs well and sounds good.

The tach gauge in the dash shows 750 to 850 RPM at warm idle, sometimes up to 950. And an auxiliary digital rpm gauge connected to a plug wire was showing more like 1000 RPM, so I don’t know why there is a discrepancy there. But all that is to say that the running RPM is in that range when I pull the spout connector.

The engine is between 200-250°, depending where I am the laser on the block & heads.

the TPS reads 5 v continuous power and goes from 0.86 v steady up to 4.6 v on the throttle test. No flat spots that I can see.

Also, the warm engine will die instantly when I remove the IAC connector.

Using a timing light when the engine is idling around 850, I’m getting 25 degrees before tdc if I’m reading it right. So I think I’m pretty close on timing. Correct?

I’ve pulled codes and gotten 11’s, then pulled later and got “C 63 tp circuit below minimum voltage” so perhaps there is some kind of intermittent connection issue with the TPS, but I don’t know what else to test on the tps or how to.

the IAC is in the 11-13 range. It isn’t dirty, and It opens with 12v battery power is applied to it, and/but it kills engine when I pull the connector.

Thanks for reading!
Dustin

 

[rusty ol ranger]

What happens if you crack open the throttle and pull the spout?

 

[Dustin_89BII]

With throttle up to 2000-2200 rpm it dies just the same with the spout removed.
Right after this test I ran codes again.

I got code 11 for koeo & koer this time, but I had the battery off 10 miles prior.
However, I did get continuous memory code 14 — pip sensor. “indicates two successive erratic profile ignition pickup (PIP) pulses occurred, resulting in a possible engine miss or stall.
Possible causes:
Loose wires/connectors.
Arcing secondary ignition components (coil, cap, rotor, wires, plugs, etc.)
On-board transmitter (2-way radio)”

pip is part of the spout connector, so I’m curious about this potential connection.
My distributor cap is 180 from normal to get timing correct. The #1 plug is at like 3 o’clock, so the plug wires are laying over each other like spaghetti at the cap. Otherwise I have them separated pretty well.

Any other ideas? Thanks!

 

[rusty ol ranger]

With throttle up to 2000-2200 rpm it dies just the same with the spout removed.
Right after this test I ran codes again.

I got code 11 for koeo & koer this time, but I had the battery off 10 miles prior.
However, I did get continuous memory code 14 — pip sensor. “indicates two successive erratic profile ignition pickup (PIP) pulses occurred, resulting in a possible engine miss or stall.
Possible causes:
Loose wires/connectors.
Arcing secondary ignition components (coil, cap, rotor, wires, plugs, etc.)
On-board transmitter (2-way radio)”

pip is part of the spout connector, so I’m curious about this potential connection.
My distributor cap is 180 from normal to get timing correct. The #1 plug is at like 3 o’clock, so the plug wires are laying over each other like spaghetti at the cap. Otherwise I have them separated pretty well.

Any other ideas? Thanks!

Why is your cap 180 off? I know ive read of plug wires interfering with each other. Espicially on TFI systems.

Id say straighten that out and if not you might have a bad distributor

 

[Shran]

Are you saying that the cap itself is rotated? For some reason I remember them being keyed so they only go one one way...?

If that is the case how do you know your firing order on the cap is correct?

I've had distributors stabbed a tooth off or timing belts a tooth off to where the vehicle will start, run and can be timed "to spec" but the distributor will be at the extreme limits of its rotation. Usually having them stabbed 180 off will result in a no start. But I guess even if it was 180 off and the firing order on the cap was grossly out of order, there is a possibility that it could still run...?

Regardless that's weird that it dies when you pull the spout plug. It should just revert back to base timing when you do that and continue running.

 

[Dustin_89BII]

I’m sorry guys, I miss spoke about the distributor cap. The cap is in the normal orientation with the tfi sticking out at ~ 7-8 o’clock . Plenty of room to set timing. It’s just that the plugs are kind of reversed, with # 1 at 3 o’clock rather than the typical 9.

I was able to move the plug wires around and limit interference. I then reset the computer and took the truck on a half hour drive in the country upon my return I pulled codes and got 11 – 11– 11… A full pass. We’ll see if that holds true.

Thanks for your responses and support. I really appreciate it!

 

[Shran]

So #1 plug wire goes to the #2 terminal on your cap and the others are out of order too if I understand correctly?

This is how it should be... distributor rotated slightly either way but not wildly different than this. If you have it set up some other way... it's not right... and if it runs, your distributor is stabbed wrong or there was some other mistake made. With that in mind though I guess that still doesn't explain why it dies when the SPOUT is removed.

 

[Dustin_89BII]

Yeah the dizzy was stabbed 180 out. Because it was practically impossible to do the first time, I instead rotated the start point of the plug wires on the cap 180 to match. So the # 1 wire is on #5 spot in the diagram, and then continued the firing order around.

 

[fastpakr]

Is it -possible- that the connector you're removing is anything other than the Spout?

 

[RonD]

Whats the spark timing with SPOUT connected?

Should be 20-24deg BTDC with engine warmed up

SPOUT is "vacuum advance" for TFI, adds 12-14deg to Base timing

If its lower, 10-12deg BTDC, then if you unplug SPOUT engine would die, because spark would happen well After TDC

With SPOUT connected adjust base timing to 22deg BTDC
Then unplug SPOUT and adjust base timing to 10-12deg BTDC your choice

 

[rusty ol ranger]

So your TFI is pointing toward the drivers side?

If you stretched the harness to hook it that maybe an issue

 

[Dustin_89BII]

Thanks for all your replies. It’s working now! I think it was some weird wiring issue. I just moved around, cleaned up, and zip tied cables out of the way and farther from heat. Tied it one more time after giving it some good road time. I pulled the spout and it still idled.

I had set timing to about 25 btdc with spout in and it did seem close, but it was baffling that these two connectors would make the engine die. Now I’m happy.

Thanks for the support, guys! TRS folks are awesome .

 

[Dustin_89BII]

So your TFI is pointing toward the drivers side?

If you stretched the harness to hook it that maybe an issue

TFI is in the normal PS direction, but the plug wires go into the cap with #1 wire in where # 5 goes traditionally. I’ll re-stab the distributor after I get this thing through DEQ emissions testing. I’m just running out of time on my trip permit!

I think poor plug wire routing was causing code 14 though. I cleaned it up and the code went away
Cheers!