Preparing for 5.0 swap, what issues am I likely to encounter?

[lil_Blue_Ford]

Unfortunately....
We are leaving the era of the 6 speed as well. ....you can say this about the 302 windsors....4r70w gen 3 LS...as well...because they are drying up for cheap and easy and decent miles. but the 6r80 It is awesome and in relatives its unbelievable how it can change the usability of a 5.0. it is sad that so few people utilized this goldmine of value.

but you are here....and still doing this sort of swap. it is worth detailing.


i say this because this is the most cost effective way to handle serious hp and best overall gearing.

the quick 6 controller seems overpriced for something you will buy that can be 12-1400 dollars to run a 4-600 dollar transmission.... paying 3 times as much for the controller as a good transmission may cost, seems like a dumb idea.

unless...

or untill you realize a 6r can handle 800 to 1000 hp with just tuning.

to be clear there are upgrades one will want to do. and those are well known these days.


but the point is ....for a 5.0 it is stronger then any streetable unit.... and amplifies the typical boltons one does to a windsor and changes the experience. you can not spend any amount of money on a 4r70 and exceed the usability of the 6r.





i will try to get curt to provide specific detail. he has this combination in a ttb truck and it is as good as one can expect. the value to dollar is all win.

i myself will likely be using this unit in my ranger if i decide not to build a new truck. and my ranger has a v8 diesel.

Hmm… I’d like to hear more… not gonna happen any time soon, I’ll probably throw a shift kit at the 4R70w for the time being, but at some point I wanted to build a 331 stroker that would go in my green Ranger when the 5.0 gives up. Guess I’ll be looking at collecting and building a 6R80 for it too.

 

[fastpakr]

Hmm… I’d like to hear more… not gonna happen any time soon, I’ll probably throw a shift kit at the 4R70w for the time being, but at some point I wanted to build a 331 stroker that would go in my green Ranger when the 5.0 gives up. Guess I’ll be looking at collecting and building a 6R80 for it too.

Yeah I'm a little curious too. Eventually I'm going to pull the 5.0 so I can fix a few things. Sell me on the idea and I might start collecting the pieces.

 

[bobbywalter]

hopefully he wont be pissed i put these up... he has worked through the development of the 6r combination based on the mod/coyote pattern mating to the windsor engines......and that experience i am utilizing in a current windsor direction i am in a goal towards on a different project....


now he is onto another combination. and this will be living beneath a rbv hood....or remnants of a hood maybe







so this monster has a different pattern of course...

but these jewels demonstrate further options. options that can simplify the windsor/mod mating and reduce costs....which will directly benefit us windsor guys...

at the end of the day......



its putting that monster 400 onto this monster.....

will be an interesting critter when its worked out....the 10 speeds(not that super size unit but the 150/explorer/mustang units of course) will obviously be the next most common transmission to use in future swaps as they will be the dominant units in the junkyards.....very happy to tag along with these developments.



these things will hopefully soon clarify options for the rbv community and others....old school fords obviously.....will be a big winner when this gets worked out....






and you guys with old school fords.....which i hope to have at least one 70s rig.....cost effective horsepower for the red headed step child engines is definitely happening...

just a warning......swapping to a 6r may turn you into a mad scientist.

 

[Curtis408]

For what it's worth, my 1st 4R, it lived past 100k before the OD band said enough is enough. The sealing rings at the back of the case has worn in. I bought another 4R, went through it, months later it started applying the OD band in 3rd. Long story short.
At this point the 6R was bought for $450 with 110k miles, only thing done to it is going to sonnax bushings few are known to wear replaced them all. I have 45k on the build now and looking back. I wish I would have gone to the 6R sooner. Makes the 165 AFR heads, comp cam( if memory serves correctly it's a efi grind comparable to a E cam) short tubes explorer intake, 2¼" Y into 2½" single. Set up for the engine is nothing crazy. But adding the 6R to the mix made that 3" stroke engine much livelier. Using a BW 4417 from the f150 the factory shift controls handle the tcase motor just fine. Using Duff mounts and urethane ranger trans mount. Truck averages 15.5 to 20.5mpg and needs tuned still running 24 lb injectors on a stock explorer EEC.
Tuning guy I deal with in new York (Adam with pops racing) has told me he has used a coyote computer to get a Windsor/6r to work together without a quick 6 but I haven't really looked into that much yet. Truck is running extended radius arms, on air ride out back.
351C block to get gen V GM SBC heads 6.2l once the super trac is finalized and done.

 

[fastpakr]

For what it's worth, my 1st 4R, it lived past 100k before the OD band said enough is enough. The sealing rings at the back of the case has worn in. I bought another 4R, went through it, months later it started applying the OD band in 3rd. Long story short.
At this point the 6R was bought for $450 with 110k miles, only thing done to it is going to sonnax bushings few are known to wear replaced them all. I have 45k on the build now and looking back. I wish I would have gone to the 6R sooner. Makes the 165 AFR heads, comp cam( if memory serves correctly it's a efi grind comparable to a E cam) short tubes explorer intake, 2¼" Y into 2½" single. Set up for the engine is nothing crazy. But adding the 6R to the mix made that 3" stroke engine much livelier. Using a BW 4417 from the f150 the factory shift controls handle the tcase motor just fine. Using Duff mounts and urethane ranger trans mount. Truck averages 15.5 to 20.5mpg and needs tuned still running 24 lb injectors on a stock explorer EEC.
Tuning guy I deal with in new York (Adam with pops racing) has told me he has used a coyote computer to get a Windsor/6r to work together without a quick 6 but I haven't really looked into that much yet. Truck is running extended radius arms, on air ride out back.
351C block to get gen V GM SBC heads 6.2l once the super trac is finalized and done.

What did you use for an adapter between the 6R and the V8?

 

[bobbywalter]

Thanks Curt.

What did you use for an adapter between the 6R and the V8?

He told me he will put some more in when he gets some time.

The adapter used was an earlier version and a plate.

Just like the picture shows you had to cut the starter pocket.

There are other potential options now.

Nipping the block at the starter pocket can allow for 5 bolt retention and it's free to do. And should allow use of the 3 bolt starter.

Not deep enough into it yet for the actual issues pro and con.

 

[JoshT]

I'm not saying to stop talking about it here, but this transmission swap sounds like something that really needs it's own dedicated thread to discuss and hash everything out in. Be a good start for a tech article once it gets worked out. I understand that y'all may want to wait until things are more ironed out though.

 

[Curtis408]

What did you use for an adapter between the 6R and the V8?

You can see the adapter there, I bought it from a guy named Ryan Denney, if you look up 6r80 to 302 on you tube you will find him. ¼ plate. The 3 bell housing bolts the modular doesn't use I used countersunk bolts on. The dowel pins get knocked out and tapped the hole past the machined surface. For the 10R140 I went a little different route. The pictured dowel is the same.500 as the pushrod dowel, larger is the same as the modular, drilled and tapped to 7/16-14, they will get welded in the adapter.
The other option I have been told about is cutting the bottom passenger side ear of the block below the dowel pin, that will give enough room to run the modular starter, no spacer, just did something similar with the dowel pins they just tapped the block side dowel and ran a bolt in from the front to secure it in the block.

 

[bobbywalter]

I'm not saying to stop talking about it here, but this transmission swap sounds like something that really needs it's own dedicated thread to discuss and hash everything out in. Be a good start for a tech article once it gets worked out. I understand that y'all may want to wait until things are more ironed out though.

Indeed. We can pull it out.


Donor explorers often have hosed transmissions or t cases/front axle. At least around here lately. Exhaust manifolds are usually cracked and ticky or hissy ect. In the yards everybody strips the fead and timing covers and heads and intakes immediately and end up piecing stuff together. As evidenced here with members whom have already run through this .. the 6r is of interest.

And these are problems you can expect to run into .... When doing a swap. There isnt much more to it. But if the data is here based on this date and thread title the relevance is worthy

 

[Curtis408]

I'm not saying to stop talking about it here, but this transmission swap sounds like something that really needs it's own dedicated thread to discuss and hash everything out in. Be a good start for a tech article once it gets worked out. I understand that y'all may want to wait until things are more ironed out though.

If you are going to run a 4r70, these were 95% ran by Mom's who may not abuse them but maintenance on them was when something goes wrong or keys handed to kids and it gets thrashed on. For peace of mind I would much rather tear down and inspect than find out say rear case bearing is going bad and wipes out the sealing ring surface on the case. Then you are trying to find another 2 bolt starter 4R from a junkyard( when my 2nd 4R cracked it's case, closest one in a junkyard with under 150k was $875. I bought my 6R for $450 with 110k miles) .
4R will take abuse but when bearings, bushings, start to wear due to age lack of maintenance etc. a good core can become a pile of . My 2nd one my planet was wore out at 140k miles.
And as far as being ironed out my set up has 45k miles on it with the 6r. Absolutely love it.
Either way, at least inspect what you have, no worse feeling than getting a project done and a month later something failed that could have been prevented. If you were close I would say come get my 4R parts, close to $1200 into it just sitting apart.

 

[JoshT]

Indeed. We can pull it out.


Donor explorers often have hosed transmissions or t cases/front axle. At least around here lately. Exhaust manifolds are usually cracked and ticky or hissy ect. In the yards everybody strips the fead and timing covers and heads and intakes immediately and end up piecing stuff together. As evidenced here with members whom have already run through this .. the 6r is of interest.

And these are problems you can expect to run into .... When doing a swap. There isnt much more to it. But if the data is here based on this date and thread title the relevance is worthy

6R is of interest to me too, just a long ways off.

Project right now is to get the truck running, drivable, and reliable as possible with the V8 swap before summer. I'd like to be driving it to LBL for the meet in September if I get to make it. I need to put some miles on it before then and I know it's going to be too hot around here to be fixing stuff during summer.

After that my focus will be back to the F-100 for a little while to get some stuff done and "stabalize" the rust issues. While all of this is going on I'll be scheming on how to clear property to build a shop, and hopefully have a shop in the next year or two.

Once shop is built I'll be starting on two or three engine builds. A nice SBF for this, either a nice FE or a 7.3 (stock godzilla) swap for the F-100, and a 2.3 turbo for an 85 Ranger. Not sure which one will come first, be needed first, or be finished first.

It's not a discussion I really want to get into much right now because it's way off from the current goals, but to go with the new SBF for this I've been scheming on building a stout 4R and possibly how to incorporate paddle shifters. I know that the transmission is capable of being controlled that way, but the easiest ways to do it are to use something like the US Shift controller or go full aftermarket EFI with a Terminator X Max. Using a 6R (or maybe 10R?) paired with one of those two options is not out of the question, but it is something I'm not ready to explore at this time.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

I need to put some miles on it before then and I know it's going to be too hot around here to be fixing stuff during summer.

No no, you are overthinking it.

Thrash it together and hit the road, pass or fail, sink or swim, do or do not and all that.

I had a 4R in my last F-150 and my current F-150 has a 6R... not a huge bit of difference IMO between the two. BUT I had the 4R since it was 3 years old with 25k miles, it still ran great when I sold the truck just north of 200k. It had seen no soccar mom duty passed down to brat that didn't like the car either.

 

[JoshT]

If you are going to run a 4r70, these were 95% ran by Mom's who may not abuse them but maintenance on them was when something goes wrong or keys handed to kids and it gets thrashed on. For peace of mind I would much rather tear down and inspect than find out say rear case bearing is going bad and wipes out the sealing ring surface on the case. Then you are trying to find another 2 bolt starter 4R from a junkyard( when my 2nd 4R cracked it's case, closest one in a junkyard with under 150k was $875. I bought my 6R for $450 with 110k miles) .
4R will take abuse but when bearings, bushings, start to wear due to age lack of maintenance etc. a good core can become a pile of . My 2nd one my planet was wore out at 140k miles.
And as far as being ironed out my set up has 45k miles on it with the 6r. Absolutely love it.
Either way, at least inspect what you have, no worse feeling than getting a project done and a month later something failed that could have been prevented. If you were close I would say come get my 4R parts, close to $1200 into it just sitting apart.

FWIW I've got a good spare 4R from a '98 Ex too, but it's 2wd. If it becomes necessary to use it, I've got a friend that can rebuild transmissions and it can be converted to 4wd. Given a workspace and instructions I could probably do it myself. I'd also thought about going ahead and acquiring a spare 4wd 4R to build, but need to figure out which ones I can use.

Explorer is the obvious source, but I'm not positive about compatability between years. IIRC a 98-01 Explorer would be the best option, but I think the 96-97 can be used too with some rewiring.

I know I can't use a mod motor 4R due to the bellhousing. IIRC the 4.2 F-150 had the same bellhousing pattern as the 5.0L, but I don't know if it came with the 4R and 4wd.

I know that there were some changes in all 4Rs over the years, but I think it pretty well matches up with the changes in the Explorer 4R. I figure worst case I'd get what ever AWD/4WD 4R I could find and use the tail shaft and housing to rebuild my 2wd into a 4wd. Output shaft and housing should be swappable between any of them and I'd want to rebuild before installing it anyway.

 

[JoshT]

No no, you are overthinking it.

Thrash it together and hit the road, pass or fail, sink or swim, do or do not and all that.

I had a 4R in my last F-150 and my current F-150 has a 6R... not a huge bit of difference IMO between the two. BUT I had the 4R since it was 3 years old with 25k miles, it still ran great when I sold the truck just north of 200k. It had seen no soccar mom duty passed down to brat that didn't like the car either.

I know you were joking, but...

If my dad were in better shape and could bring the trailer when I broke down, that might be an option. If it were in state it might be an option with dad in current shape. If @RickW wants to go to the meet draging an empty trailer behind the Road Ranger just in case, that might be an option. Without either of those it's too far to risk getting stranded in something that doesn;t have a few miles on it. I should definitely be able to get a few miles on it between the swap and September.

I'm really not too worried about the strength of the 4R. Hish miles and unknown history, so this one will probably need a rebuild sooner than later, but that's expected. A lot of people have put a lot of power through a properly setup 4R. I intent to get one properly setup and don't think I'll be putting as much power through it as them. This truck isn't being built with big heavy meats in mind so no strain there. I'm also not going to be hammering on it at a drag strip and, as an AWD, it isn't exactly being built to do burnouts. Worst it'll probably see is occasionally pulling a utility trailer with my 4 wheeler or something on it. If I need to do heavy towing I've got the F-100 and F-250.

 

[JoshT]

@lil_Blue_Ford I watched you video, but still unsure of the connectors. I'm sure I'll watch it a few more times before I get my head wrapped around this.

Looking under the hood of both vehicles I see a couple that look very similar if not the same on both.

Explorer I see these:

above the ABS pump

Below the ABS pump:

Ranger I see these:

Above ABS pump

Below master cylinder

I'm pretty certain that it's the one below the ABS pump and the master cylinder that would need to be joined together.

Also I'm planning to swap over the full underhood AC system from the explorer. If I mixed the systems I'd need to get both of them drained and then the truck recharged after, I'm thinking that would also delete the high pressure switch port. Hoping that I can move it over without having to break loose any lines and loose the charge.

Explorer high pressure switch is up by the core support

For the Ranger it's on the back of the AC compressor

The wiring for the Explorer high pressure switch runs through the engine bay harness up to the core support. That wiring doesn;t exist in the Ranger's harness. I'm thinking that I just need to extend the connector from the back of the compressor up to the core support.

If they are the same, I've got a second start/charge harness for both a '98 5.0 and a '00 Ranger 4.0 thanks to past parts trucks. I might be better off combining the two into a single replacement start/charge harness, instead of trying to make a jumper harness. I might even be able to whip up something before I even tear into the two. I'll have to pull both spare harnesses when I get a chance and look at them side by side.

Also trying to roundup factory wire diagrams for both the '99 Ranger and '00 Explorer. I scored one for the Explorer on ebay for about $20 bucks shipped. Not having as much luck on the Ranger, the few I've found are well more than I want to spend. I wouldn;t mind spending about another $20 to get the Ranger book, but what I've seen has been $50 to $90.