Rear locker, tire sizes

[ericbphoto]

you are not going fast enough if you get high centered, ha ha ha.

i did back in my 4x4 days too

“Send it” breaks stuff.

 

[Blmpkn]

“Send it” breaks stuff.

Mostly chastity belts

 

[sgtsandman]

Mostly chastity belts

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

It really kinda depends on where you want to be with things. Really, if you get into it, you just want to keep building bigger and more capable. I was talking about it with one of my buddies and he said that he was thinking about picking up a stock 2-door wrangler or something and go back to running on 31’s because now that his stuff is built and on 34’s and 35’s, the easy trails are boring and the hard trails break stuff so where do you stop? The bigger you build it the harder trails you want to do and you don’t want to go to more basic trail rides because it’s boring following stock trucks with a lifted monster. Makes sense and I get what he was getting at. Guess you just have to find a point where you’re content with things and get it mentally set in your head that you’re happy with it. Or build a couple rigs.

I originally built my Choptop as a street legal wheeler. I drive it on the road and I have driven it on the road a lot more than it’s played off-road. It’s really not great for the road, kinda like a giant spring toy. Does surprisingly well off-road, even as a 2wd. I like driving it and it gets attention, but even with quick disconnects on the sway bar on the front (drilled it out to take a 1/2” hitch pin and to help account for the lift used 92 Explorer sway bar links), my F-150 that has no sway bars can still go around bends way faster. But it is what it is, and I drive it like a big spring toy and just enjoy it.

If I can ever get back to it, my 88 B2 was getting a 2” suspension and 1” body lift and possibly 31’s, but it might live on 30” tires. Probably end up doing some mild wheeling with it. Just because it can. But heck, back in the day I wheeled my first Ranger, 2wd with an open rear, mud tires on the back and just feed her the beans. Arguably not the smartest, but …

 

[bobbywalter]

It really kinda depends on where you want to be with things. Really, if you get into it, you just want to keep building bigger and more capable. I was talking about it with one of my buddies and he said that he was thinking about picking up a stock 2-door wrangler or something and go back to running on 31’s because now that his stuff is built and on 34’s and 35’s, the easy trails are boring and the hard trails break stuff so where do you stop? The bigger you build it the harder trails you want to do and you don’t want to go to more basic trail rides because it’s boring following stock trucks with a lifted monster. Makes sense and I get what he was getting at. Guess you just have to find a point where you’re content with things and get it mentally set in your head that you’re happy with it. Or build a couple rigs.

I originally built my Choptop as a street legal wheeler. I drive it on the road and I have driven it on the road a lot more than it’s played off-road. It’s really not great for the road, kinda like a giant spring toy. Does surprisingly well off-road, even as a 2wd. I like driving it and it gets attention, but even with quick disconnects on the sway bar on the front (drilled it out to take a 1/2” hitch pin and to help account for the lift used 92 Explorer sway bar links), my F-150 that has no sway bars can still go around bends way faster. But it is what it is, and I drive it like a big spring toy and just enjoy it.

If I can ever get back to it, my 88 B2 was getting a 2” suspension and 1” body lift and possibly 31’s, but it might live on 30” tires. Probably end up doing some mild wheeling with it. Just because it can. But heck, back in the day I wheeled my first Ranger, 2wd with an open rear, mud tires on the back and just feed her the beans. Arguably not the smartest, but …

that is funny.... my chop top is the opposite. when mark first started building it ...it was a thrash toy.

and that was all it was supposed to be.

he wasnt wanting to deal with the 351 swap efforts and heat related cons for it...and wanted something simple... i had it at my house for the 4.0 swap wiring fitment in down river detroit...and madi was like 6 or so....and she thought it was neat...but she didnt really give a shit either way...was happy on her motorcycles and 4 wheelers..



but years later when he gifted it to me.....Madisyn wanted to drive it something fierce....it was so much cooler then she remembered. she had totally forgot about it...

so. that was that. it went from trailer trash to road trash.

eventually she graduated and left for the airforce and it was and is.. my second car....also young bobs second car....but he dont like it so much anymore.

i put a ton of miles on it...destroyed a bunch of transmissions and rear 9 inch stuff and front axleshafts like no tomorrow....eventually ran all of my sources of stock eb 260 axleshafts bone dry.. something i didnt think it would be around long enough to do. i have driven it to florida...all over appalachia from georgia to new york....its been to moab...big bear...... as the simple pile of scrap parts it is. and a total blast.


that said....it remains what it is for exactly what you are saying. i struggle to not put one tons on it while they are so cheap to do....but i love the limitations it has built into it.
it is a good teaching tool.


it is absolutely a dirt simple setup. its a bolt on eb swap like we all did back in the day.......with all of the suck compromise that comes with that. limited tire size...limited steering radius...limited articulation....bad gearing... it forces you to work at stuff....

it is ridiculously cheap to own and maintain....i have less then 1200 in engines....probably 800 in transmissions and t cases....the most expensive thing i have done was keep the 9 inch rear end. i have broken several...and there just isnt any good used 410 setups around....and when you do find them...they want more then new. they are stupid.

that is why my ranger has one tons. keeping a rear half ton axle alive is a waste of time and money.

 

[bobbywalter]

Thanks Bobby that makes a lot of sense.
Are you saying longer wheelbase is not as good for BOA? (about the Jeeps). Geometry question. I think I can visualize it.
What did you mean "leverage on the axles"?
I'm certainly not against bigger tires, but looking at the TRS charts, right away I get into problems with clearance.
Also unless I'm missing something, at some point I'd want/need to go to lower ration (4.10 probably) and that would be a major big job. Well, so would raising it enough to get bigger tires.
Although I'm not understanding why couldn't I go 4LO wouldn't that essentially be the same as lower ratio or am I missing something there.

In my very limited experience so far I have had no traction issues even with mild Cooper a/t's that are on there. I'll be getting new tires this summer/fall probably K02 or K03 31" that will raise truck about 1.5" (1" due to bigger [and oem] size tire, .5" due to tread wear of existing tires... I'm estimating. That's not a lot, but it's something. That would be oem setup.

What stopped me was 2 things (1) water - not horribly deep but enough to get on stuff that cools, can suck in water, so I'm addressing that (extent vent tubes). (2) breakover. you come up out of a creek even if there's no jagged obstacles (which there can be), you get the breakover issue. I probably would have been fine, and I suppose I'm kind of timid about scraping the bottom but I imagine sooner or later I'll find the limit.

Seems like, re the wheelbase, regular cab Ranger is shorter... but I really like supercab so I bought that.
It's true where I went (Broad Run road - there's vids - I linked it on my other thread on the vents) mostly what I saw was the really short Jeeps with big tires.
Not saying I'd never buy one but I really like Rangers.

I was told with LSD if it slips put on p-brake some and they should both get power so if I got in a tire spin situation for rear I'd try that before worrying about lockers.

I'm not against throwing some money at it, but first I'm doing the vents and tires, then get back out there. One thing that kind of bothers me is even if I went to say 33" that gains me only and inch of clearance over 31", that just doesn't seem like much. Going bigger, which you can do, the most you can gain is maybe 2" (with 35"). And then it's going to lose something for regular driving.

That said, I have the B3000 for in-town / highway driving, and, in general places I would want to off road are going to be within 50 miles of here. Also, the XLT was bought specifically for off use, it wasn't a necessity, more just for fun. I was up at the start of Broad Run with the Mazda and was like, oh-oh, I need/want 4x4 for this. I was going to sell the B3000 but now I find out it makes a lot of sense to have the two. Given the choice of a new Ranger at 43k or the '97 at a fraction of the cost, I figured it makes a lot more sense to go with the '97 and save the cash for upgrades. I'm just going at it kind of slow. I like the older truck I think they are cool and seem better/ruggeder and easier to work on and I wanted the front suspension type and etc it has. Point of all that is if you want to look at it that I "saved" like mid-30's money compared to new, I can spend some money on it. But there's a limit somewhere. Sure, I could get aftermarket fenders and go really big tires, put a big lift, lower the bumpers, etc but for what I want to do where is the point of diminishing returns. I'm not making a rock crawler (I don't think so anyway) and probably for easy-moderate trails I'm fine for now. When you get into extreme, no, for example Bald Mt or Potts Mt.

So for the moment - stock truck, but has one-piece driveshaft somebody put in, upgraded vents (soon), bigger (but oem) tires (soon), and I swapped the auto hubs for manual. Had to have one side drilled out $240 the key was put in upside down it was jammed in there they had to drill it out and cut the nut to get it apart. Guy that worked on it has two '97 Mountaineer 4x4 with 4.0L so, not the same truck, but, I think kind of similar, anyway, he knew what he was dealing with.

Can disconnect front sway to get a little more travel. Can air down if traction issues. So a few things I can do, although sway bar seems pita, would need quick disconnects of some type.

Please excuse kind of blathering on about it. One time I started looking at parts and wasn't hard to get to 10k but I'm not ready to pull the trigger on something like that yet, on the other hand, whatever I do, needs to make sense.

Attached pic (first one) of new ('23) Ranger I spec'd out, 43k easy, and looks basically the same as my truck and I don't think it's any better off road.
Also attached, baja setup, now I don't want baja, but it's cool looking as all get out, and you know those have ton of suspension travel and it looks pretty good clearance and should handle well on road as they go zooming around at high speed. A lot of money in the suspension, you have to change the steering etc and you see a lot of custom body stuff.
Last pic is probably closer to where I'm going it looks like probably some lift and bigger tires. I look at a ton of mod'd Rangers some don't look right. I think if it's done right it'll look right.

dont take what i am saying too far...no need to daily on 37 inch tires unless you have 513 gears....that is not cost effective.

i prefer the extended cab or a 4 door ranger/sport trac by a long shot. i am not overly short and prefer some room.

actually....my wheel base when done will be 130 ish most likely...pretty sure its 128 right now iirc. so wheeling deep with 33's is a problem for me. but driving daily is not.


you dont necessarily need massive tires...i would say 35's with a well built larger wheelbase ranger are a really good compromise....but of course...you are smart to regear if you have a smaller engine...and that expense is not light on the wallet.



plenty of examples..
4x4 junkie...and bray d come to mind when i think of the best construction goals for an rbv. they have executed outstanding capacity with minimal vehical and tire size. totally embarrass high dollar wallet jobs in the most brutal manner. i can not praise those efforts enough.

cage had several builds....real simple rigs.....then efforts like brinkers that worked great...there are dozens of guys that built road duty adventure rigs over the years here. with tires to fit need and budget...they were not massive...

many of us lived with military tires shortcomings because they are cost effective and wear like iron....but they suck. at everything except wearing out too fast... i could buy 4 37 inch hummvee tires at one point for the cost of one 35 in bfg mud terrain.


the reality is, for most people....33 inch tires are perfect for all around machines....

where my bronco can go on 36 inch tires easily...my ranger has to run 42s....but my bronco can go places on 31s you would lose bets on....

the ranger... i can do alot of stuff on 35s out west...but in the midwest goo....and hills of Appalachia not so much.



its balance.

i would rather daily on 31s in the bronco and 33's on my ranger. and often times do just that.

because of that i dont invest in deeper gears...i just live with it.

it is much cheaper to replace gear sets that are in the junk yard then dig out 1800 every time you swamp out your differentials and dont realize it until it is too late.

that is a hidden cost of playing in the woods that is not talked about so much...


now....my garage out back looks like a used tire shop...but it is quite cost effective.

i simply do what i can afford...and when raising a family of 5....that wasnt much.

There is a transition with a 4 foot ledge there.

TRS 2 could likely run that same line on 33 inch tires....without a scratch..

Just not as gracefully.....

not that there is anything graceful about that old walrus I drive.

The size of the tires adds leverage to the axles to keep the tires on the ground with solid axles. If I was on 33 inch tires....it would have been a hell of a lot more entertaining....and probably would have broke something...there would have been tire smoke .... Little bob likes to smoke tires


Still fun

 

[sgtsandman]

Like the others are saying, it depends on where you want to compromise when it comes to off roading and driving on road.

That is a hard thing to give a straight answer to. You can do quite a bit with a mild lift and some 31” tires and open differentials. The limited slip you have makes it better.

From there, you are leaning more off road than on. Bigger tires mean possibly more lift and less daily driver ability and comfort. The same goes with a locker or two.

Part of it is going to depend on the year truck you have. With the Dana 35 SLA, you can put a locker in it but you’ll want to bring some tools and spare half shafts for when you break one. TTB is more robust and forgiving.

Bigger tires and more lift give you better approach, break over, and departure angles for steeper climbs and drops. There were things I needed to avoid that the “bigger” trucks were able to do like rock climbing and some drops in the trails.

A limited slip will get you further than an open differential and like wise, a locker will get you further than a limited slip. For me, a locker in the back and a limited slip in the front is the best choice for me in the 2011. Along with the 31” tires and 4.56:1 gearing. Beyond that is a bumper with better clearance in the front and a better back bumper but the front bumper is the priority since it is more likely to get the valence and cover ripped off than anything and a heavier rear bumper won't give me any more clearance than the stock bumper.

Beyond that, you are looking at underside protection for the transfer case and fuel tank. I’ve bumped the transfer case a couple of times and cracking that would not be good. A hole the fuel tank isn’t a good thing either.

The front has seemed to be ok but a skid plate protecting the bottom of the radiator and the rack and pinion steering isn’t a bad idea. TTB is harder to protect but there are skid plates out there that smooth the transition and help protect the steering rods to some extent.

There is always more that you can do. It just depends on how much you want to compromise you on road driving ability or if you just want to go full on off road.

 

[James Morse]

I have oem skids for xfr case and fuel tank, it came with them in '97. Front skid would be nice.
Can't raise bumpers too much it runs afoul of inspection rules, most likely. Front bumper seems like a ton of clearance, could remove valence and gain a few inches there, at that point it'd be at the height of the bottom of the license plate.

it is much cheaper to replace gear sets that are in the junk yard then dig out 1800 every time you swamp out your differentials and dont realize it until it is too late.

if you are talking about water in diff's that's why I'm running vents up higher. 4 in all - 2 diffs, and trans, and xfr case.

a limited slip in the front

I've never heard of that - not something offered oem, right? I'm just wondering if you had to change it out wouldn't it be as smart at that point to put locker? Or is that a lot harder. Seems like changing from open (in the front) to anything else would be a pretty big job, same with changing ratios front/back; I have 4.0L so probably am ok with ratios at least for 31" or 33".
31" is oem, 33" would require some lift.

I see that BOA is not really the same as minimum clearance. It's going to depend on clearance halfway between the wheels front/back.
Clearance on your diff's / spring perches / etc is important to clear like a rock sticking up in the road. But it's not the same at all as BOA and of course it's just a number indicating if you had a perfect up/down ridge can you clear it at the center. Other places will always clear such an idealized ridge even though they have less clearance, because of geometry.

I realize when you are on the trail all the numbers and theories pale in the face of the reality of the situation. It just helps understand what's going on.

I have like 7.5" clearance at the rear diff and something less than that at the front. That's with worn 29" tires so I figure with new 31" tires I should have maybe 9", I think that should be stock clearance which doesn't sound like a lot but it's not horrible. And that doesn't mean you can't go over something 9" tall, it just means you can't do it where the low points are. If your tire is on that 9" obstacle then you could have like zero clearance at the diff's and still get over it fine.

Thanks for all this info it's helping a lot.

 

[sgtsandman]

None of the original Rangers came with anything other than a open front differential. A limited slip or locker are going to be an aftermarket option.

Yes, changing gears or the carrier in an axle is a big, time consuming pain in the butt. If you are going to do it, and can afford it, install all the upgrades you want at one time.

Yes, the only way you are going to get more axle clearance is bigger tires. Figure half of whatever tire you are changing from and to. So, 29”- 31”, about an inch increase. 29” - 33”, about a two inch increase.

Depending on the truck setup, you might be able to stuff a 32” in without any kind of lift but it will probably be close and you might have to trim somethings.

Anything bigger is going to need some kind of a lift.

I had to install torsion keys and axle blocks from a Ranger made before 2008 in order for 31” tires to fit properly in mine. Even with some trimming, the 31” tires rubbed quite a bit in certain situations.

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

For driving on the street, you’re going to want either open, limited slip, or a selectable locker (air or electric activated) in the front. A locked front and rear would not be particularly pleasant to drive on the road unless it’s really bad weather. With the front tires steering, a full time locker would want to bind any time the hubs are locked pretty much.

Open diffs are the smoothest on the road to drive. Limited slip can be about as smooth, adds a little different handling but it’s usually kinda subtle. Lockers have definitely different street manners. My F-150 has a Lock-Right that I put in years ago. It binds and chirps tires and I often have to use 4x4 if it’s a bit slick out not for traction, but to pull the front end around bends because I may have enough traction to go with just the back tires, but the locker likes to push the truck along straight and if the front tires aren’t pulling, it will push you along straight even with the wheels cut. The open rear wasn’t cutting it, I’d get stuck in the rain on hills and have to use 4x4, and the Lock-Right was the cheapest option. Something like a Detroit locker that replaces the entire carrier would be smoother than the Lock-Right though which just replaces the side gears and spiders. What I did doesn’t require messing with how the ring and pinion are set like replacing the carrier would. I don’t have a problem putting up with the poor road manners of what I have because, well, the only replacement for a locker is a spool and those are for off-road only. Or race track.

IMHO, if I was in your position @James Morse , I’d be thinking probably a 4” lift with extended radius arms, axle pivot drops, drop pitman, lifted leaf springs or a custom pack and a set of the Belltech 6400 or similar (Chevy 1500/ Ford f-150 drop shackles that lift the Ranger/Bronco II) and run some 33’s, maybe something along the lines of the Mastercraft Courser CXT. Either do new clutch disks and add an extra disk to the rear limited slip or go with a locker, preferably one that replaces the carrier (but the gears need re-set then), but something like the Lock-Right or Aussie would work. Ideally a selectable front locker, or limited slip, but really you’ll probably be fine with leaving the front open.

That, in my opinion is a pretty good mix of pretty capable off-road but still retaining some resemblance of road friendly. 6-8” of lift and 35“ tires is getting about the top end of what would be somewhat comfortable on-road. Anything beyond that is really an off-road toy. Or a poser show vehicle, lol. Usually easy to tell the difference between those. Since you’re keeping the Mazda which will make a fine road vehicle, and you got the Ranger to go off-road, I really don’t see much reason to go any smaller than a 4” lift and 33” tires if you’re serious about wanting to play off-road, though honestly your Ranger stock on good 31” tires will get you a surprising amount of places with a bit of driver skill. It sounds like you really want a little more than stock though.

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

From what I've read, there was front limited slip in early rangers. Only one or 2 years and extremely rare. I've made my own by adding one or 2 side gear shims. As many as could fit. It only lasts about 10,000 miles tho. I've done that to a 9" and a d-28. The front diff is just fine on road as long as it's not locked in. The front d-28 in the b-2 was really useful on winter driving cutlines, logging roads and mountain fields. Only had it for one year tho.

 

[bobbywalter]

None of the original Rangers came with anything other than a open front differential. A limited slip or locker are going to be an aftermarket option.

Yes, changing gears or the carrier in an axle is a big, time consuming pain in the butt. If you are going to do it, and can afford it, install all the upgrades you want at one time.

Yes, the only way you are going to get more axle clearance is bigger tires. Figure half of whatever tire you are changing from and to. So, 29”- 31”, about an inch increase. 29” - 33”, about a two inch increase.

Depending on the truck setup, you might be able to stuff a 32” in without any kind of lift but it will probably be close and you might have to trim somethings.

Anything bigger is going to need some kind of a lift.

I had to install torsion keys and axle blocks from a Ranger made before 2008 in order for 31” tires to fit properly in mine. Even with some trimming, the 31” tires rubbed quite a bit in certain situations.

there were quite a few l/s d28 plow b2 and rangers. didnt know it till we were re jointing and changing pinion seal on a 2 year old truck. b2 plow truck and it ate front ujoints...customer of my dads.

not sure if you can get parts anymore...but they were readily available then..

 

[bobbywalter]

I have oem skids for xfr case and fuel tank, it came with them in '97. Front skid would be nice.
Can't raise bumpers too much it runs afoul of inspection rules, most likely. Front bumper seems like a ton of clearance, could remove valence and gain a few inches there, at that point it'd be at the height of the bottom of the license plate.


if you are talking about water in diff's that's why I'm running vents up higher. 4 in all - 2 diffs, and trans, and xfr case.


I've never heard of that - not something offered oem, right? I'm just wondering if you had to change it out wouldn't it be as smart at that point to put locker? Or is that a lot harder. Seems like changing from open (in the front) to anything else would be a pretty big job, same with changing ratios front/back; I have 4.0L so probably am ok with ratios at least for 31" or 33".
31" is oem, 33" would require some lift.

I see that BOA is not really the same as minimum clearance. It's going to depend on clearance halfway between the wheels front/back.
Clearance on your diff's / spring perches / etc is important to clear like a rock sticking up in the road. But it's not the same at all as BOA and of course it's just a number indicating if you had a perfect up/down ridge can you clear it at the center. Other places will always clear such an idealized ridge even though they have less clearance, because of geometry.

I realize when you are on the trail all the numbers and theories pale in the face of the reality of the situation. It just helps understand what's going on.

I have like 7.5" clearance at the rear diff and something less than that at the front. That's with worn 29" tires so I figure with new 31" tires I should have maybe 9", I think that should be stock clearance which doesn't sound like a lot but it's not horrible. And that doesn't mean you can't go over something 9" tall, it just means you can't do it where the low points are. If your tire is on that 9" obstacle then you could have like zero clearance at the diff's and still get over it fine.

Thanks for all this info it's helping a lot.

my vents are p trapped 5 feet up...

it is a time thing....and heat....the longer it is exposed...the more likely you will have some water...

water in the diff mostly comes through the axle seals....

lil bob had my truck so stuck back in june ...in 7 hours before i finally got there it filled right up...

when i got back home a few days later there was gear oil all over the ground and all around the tire on the front passenger side....... there was nearly no oil left in the diff....and OVER a gallon of water came out....yes i measured it.

caught me off guard..

by the time i got there there was no water even touching the tires which were about a 5 inches to a foot from touching anything....and the frame t case and axles were fully differential sucked into silt....hell my front driveshaft once we got it out of there was polished...

so i just assumed the water wasnt too bad...


glad i caught it...

 

[sgtsandman]

I have heard of water getting sucked in through the seals. Thus why I changed the axle fluids and the transmission and transfer case fluids as soon as I got home.

The water wasn’t deep at the Badlands but better safe than sorry. The fluids were clean. So changed the fluids for nothing but you don’t know until you know and there is no way I know of to check it without draining the fluid.

 

[bobbywalter]

Yeah.