Another slave cylinder thread...


cmattina

Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2012
Messages
100
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Transmission
Automatic
So, I am trying to diagnose a problem. I have a 2008 4x4 with only 100 000km on it. That is probably 60/40 highway and town. Very slowly it has been harder and harder to get into gear at a stop light. Sometimes it is perfectly easy and normal, other times I have to really struggle. I figure I need something, but I am really curious how long I have and if I will eventually be TOTALLY Shit outa luck. Like, if my worst-case scenario for the next several months is to shut the truck off at lights, then I can live with that. But I do not want to be left stranded. It shifts fine when driving… I have had about 5 rangers and none of them were SUPER easy to get into gear from neutral.

Below is a copy and paste that describes my situation to T. I copy and pasted it from Reddit
Troubleshooting
  1. Problem only occurs when shifting out of neutral at a stop (ie- a stoplight).
  2. 70% of the time shifting from neutral to 1st is "stiff" 10% of the time it is "smooth" and %10 of the time it is "rough" and 5%"very rough" and 5%"impossible" I have had to shut the truck off to get it into gear.
  3. Problem does not occur when truck is OFF
  4. Problem does not occur when truck is moving (ie at road speeds, or during a rolling stop)
  5. No grinding
  6. It is sometimes hard to get into ANY gear from neutral when stopped Not just the "unsynchronized" gears.
Looking for any advice… will I be left stranded soon? Could it be tomorrow or will it get progressively worse? Is it “definitely” the slave? Could it be something else?

Update:
- Found out master was leaking or had leaked.
- Changed master and bench bled properly.
- Seems to be within spec on movement, clutch does not drag nor slip
- Problem seems to persist.

 
Last edited:


Rock Auto 5% Discount Code: CFB3B5F7F32B37 Expires: March 30, 2020

Josh B

Well-known member
Supporting Member
TRS 20th Anniversary
Joined
Aug 15, 2019
Messages
1,028
Reaction score
269
Points
83
Location
Oklahoma
Vehicle Year
1993
Make / Model
Ford Ranger
Engine Type
4.0 V6
Transmission
Manual
2WD / 4WD
4WD
I'd look underneath for an oil leak at the front of the transmission, how bad that is will tell you a lot.
I'm not sure if the two were related but my slave was on the way out recently and i was getting everything together to replace the cylinder, clutch, and pressure plates.
Then a "one more time" trip into town and something came apart at the store when I cranked it, the clutch pedal would not even push in. I wound up getting a friend to tow me home, about 10 or 12 miles through the country dirt roads.
The throw-out bearing had come apart and the master cylinder had gone out also, at the same time I suppose. ( I had replaced them both along with a clutch 12 yrs/100,000 miles ago)
After getting it back together and seeing it went much deeper i purchased a rebuilt online and am now getting geared up to replace the transmission as well, but I had to first get the clutch back together before I knew for sure how far it went, and am certainly looking forward to getting this entire ordeal fixed
 

alwaysFlOoReD

Forum Staff Member
Forum Moderator
TRS Banner 2012-2015
TRS 20th Anniversary
Joined
Apr 13, 2009
Messages
9,825
Reaction score
891
Points
113
Location
Red Deer, Canada
Vehicle Year
'91, '94, '80
Make / Model
Ford, GMC
Engine Size
4.0,4.0,350
Transmission
Manual
How is the fluid level in the master cylinder?
 

BlackBII

Ranger Custom
Article Contributor
OTOTM Winner
TRS Banner 2010-2011
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Messages
7,431
Reaction score
172
Points
63
Location
UT
Vehicle Year
1989
Make / Model
Ford
Engine Type
4.0 V6
Transmission
Manual
2WD / 4WD
4WD
Total Lift
5
Tire Size
33
Could be the slave not moving the pressure plate far enough.

Could also be the pilot bearing; the nose of the input shaft goes into this bearing in the flywheel and it could be keeping the input shaft turning while the clutch is pressed in.
 

cmattina

Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2012
Messages
100
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Transmission
Automatic
I'd look underneath for an oil leak at the front of the transmission, how bad that is will tell you a lot.
I'm not sure if the two were related but my slave was on the way out recently and i was getting everything together to replace the cylinder, clutch, and pressure plates.
Then a "one more time" trip into town and something came apart at the store when I cranked it, the clutch pedal would not even push in. I wound up getting a friend to tow me home, about 10 or 12 miles through the country dirt roads.
The throw-out bearing had come apart and the master cylinder had gone out also, at the same time I suppose. ( I had replaced them both along with a clutch 12 yrs/100,000 miles ago)
After getting it back together and seeing it went much deeper i purchased a rebuilt online and am now getting geared up to replace the transmission as well, but I had to first get the clutch back together before I knew for sure how far it went, and am certainly looking forward to getting this entire ordeal fixed
Hm. i did notice a bit of moisture down there. but it didn't look bad at all, but not perfect (see pic). Is that DEFINITELY hydaulic fluid from the slave? looking at my master reservoir it didn't look low but i did top it up just now a touch past the step... hopefully that doesn't over pressurize anything.

Would your throwout going have anything to do with the slave losing pressure?
 

Attachments

cmattina

Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2012
Messages
100
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Transmission
Automatic
Could be the slave not moving the pressure plate far enough.

Could also be the pilot bearing; the nose of the input shaft goes into this bearing in the flywheel and it could be keeping the input shaft turning while the clutch is pressed in.
So slave not going in far enough = low pressure = not enough fluid?

As far as pilot bearing, i presume it just wears out?

The problem was much worse when i had a bad wheel bearing. i thought it was maybe driveline bind (suggested on this site). it seemed to have gotten better after i changed the hub, which had a REALLY bad bearing. But... maybe that is shot again (cheap chinese hub) or the other is?
 
Last edited:

pjtoledo

Well-known member
Supporting Member
U.S. Military - Veteran
Joined
Oct 5, 2007
Messages
2,020
Reaction score
192
Points
63
Location
Toledo Ohio
Vehicle Year
20002005199
Make / Model
Fords
Engine Size
3.0 2.3
My credo
get outta my way, I'm falling!
when my pilot bearing went out, while stopped with my foot on the clutch I would get popping sounds and what felt like small jerks in the drive train. squeels too.
the bad pilot bearing was grabbing the input shaft, made it difficult to shift into first while stopped.

you can test for how much the clutch releases

jack up the back , on jackstands preferably, parking brake released, put transmission in any gear, engine off of course.
try to rotate the driveshaft, it should only move far enough to take up the slack then stop.
have an assistant depress the clutch. as the clutch releases you should be able to rotate the drive shaft.
note where the pedal is, repeat it a few times to see if it's consistently the same spot and there is some room left at the bottom.
 

Josh B

Well-known member
Supporting Member
TRS 20th Anniversary
Joined
Aug 15, 2019
Messages
1,028
Reaction score
269
Points
83
Location
Oklahoma
Vehicle Year
1993
Make / Model
Ford Ranger
Engine Type
4.0 V6
Transmission
Manual
2WD / 4WD
4WD
When you pulled the axle shaft was the shaft smooth where the bearings sit? if it was grooved there you need to replace it
The reservoir has a diaphram which is meant to allow excess fluid to return as the clutch wears down, it won't build up pressure there.
#3. problem does not occur when the truck is OFF. Hmmm, maybe that's the answer haha
100,000 Km = 60,000 miles, that would still be under warranty if the time hadn't lapsed.

Have you changed the fluid? If you should decide to, it could be very helpful, especially if you find excessive amounts of metal on the magnet, or can reach any through the drain plug hole(maybe even stick an extension magnet in there a ways and wiggle it around)
Mine had 234,000 miles when purchased, but looked like new and was tight as a new one also, mostly all highway miles. The first thing I found was basically what you described. I went through emissions and had to put it neutral and shut it off, then when it was done I couldn't get it to go into 1st gear, which said I needed a clutch repair. I drained the trans fluid and found some small metal pieces inside, which I took to a Ford dealer shop forman, who looked at it, called his transmission man up there, and after they discussed it awhile said it was likely from a bearing cage. I still dropped the trans and put a clutch and slave cylinder in. Drove it with caution never slap stick speed shifting or anything reckless. Moved 4 truck and trailer loads 600 miles each way over 3 months time, and continued to drive it till now, over 100,000 more miles as it was, but I'm doing it now again as I believe that bearing's gone out, and I have a rebuilt at the ready, hoping to get it replaced in the next week. haha, did I get off subject? :)
 

cmattina

Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2012
Messages
100
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Transmission
Automatic
When you pulled the axle shaft was the shaft smooth where the bearings sit? if it was grooved there you need to replace it
The reservoir has a diaphram which is meant to allow excess fluid to return as the clutch wears down, it won't build up pressure there.
#3. problem does not occur when the truck is OFF. Hmmm, maybe that's the answer haha
100,000 Km = 60,000 miles, that would still be under warranty if the time hadn't lapsed.

Have you changed the fluid?
I changed the fluid at the 10 year mark. I believe i put in the right amount, it is about 0.5" below the fill hole, perhaps a bit higher. When the tranny is warm it seems to flow out a little, when it is cold it doesn't - i'm talking with the fill plug removed.

This truck is 11 years old so assume out of warranty

Regarding it shifting properly with engine off... are you just kidding around or is there indeed an answer there?

As for the axle shaft... i do not remember at all. I think it was okay.... I guess i could jack it up again and give everything a wiggle. If the bearing was out again, causing driveline bind, i presume i'd notice if play at the wheel or binding when spinning...????
 

cmattina

Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2012
Messages
100
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Transmission
Automatic
when my pilot bearing went out, while stopped with my foot on the clutch I would get popping sounds and what felt like small jerks in the drive train. squeels too.
the bad pilot bearing was grabbing the input shaft, made it difficult to shift into first while stopped.

you can test for how much the clutch releases
I dont seem to have those symptoms...

I did lazy man's test. Truck parked on slight incline, put it in gear, started it, left clutch in and it rolled. Rolled at same speed as when in neutral. So, at that specific time it seemed to be working properly...
 

Josh B

Well-known member
Supporting Member
TRS 20th Anniversary
Joined
Aug 15, 2019
Messages
1,028
Reaction score
269
Points
83
Location
Oklahoma
Vehicle Year
1993
Make / Model
Ford Ranger
Engine Type
4.0 V6
Transmission
Manual
2WD / 4WD
4WD
With your troubleshooting list up there, did it offer any solution?
Yes Cmattina, I didn't quite understand #3, and that did seem funny at the time.
You can take a bearing travel measurement fairly easy with the home made tool shown, or anything that will give a good measurement
 

Attachments

Last edited:

cmattina

Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2012
Messages
100
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Transmission
Automatic
With your troubleshooting list up there, did it offer any solution?
Yes Cmattina, I didn't quite understand #3, and that did seem funny at the time.
You can take a bearing travel measurement fairly easy with the home made tool shown, or anything that will give a good measurement
Yeah i wasnt being argumentative just wasnt sure if you were serious or not. It seems many cars these days actually automatically shut off at stop lights, so i can live with shutting my off and restarting. easier to replace a starter than a clutch.

Regarding the bearing measurement: what would i be looking to achieve there?
 

Josh B

Well-known member
Supporting Member
TRS 20th Anniversary
Joined
Aug 15, 2019
Messages
1,028
Reaction score
269
Points
83
Location
Oklahoma
Vehicle Year
1993
Make / Model
Ford Ranger
Engine Type
4.0 V6
Transmission
Manual
2WD / 4WD
4WD
I suppose your problem is the clutch is not disengaging and that will help determine the problem.
I used that in some form the first time I did my clutch, but this time the fluid leak was so obvious, and the bearing failed, I had already gotten everything together and just took off in. The biggest problem i find when pulling one are those exhaust bolts. I don't see your motor anywhere but if it's the 4.0 you might find the same thing. With the 4.0 you have to pull the forward exhaust pipe to remove the transmission, two bolts on each exhaust manifold flange, and they can be a real pain. Either a very strong impact, or a four foot cheater to break them loose. I've very fortunately never twisted one off, but that would be another problem all it's own

Ahh, i just looked at your leak photo and there is no exhaust pipe there
 

cmattina

Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2012
Messages
100
Reaction score
5
Points
18
Transmission
Automatic
I suppose your problem is the clutch is not disengaging and that will help determine the problem.
I used that in some form the first time I did my clutch, but this time the fluid leak was so obvious, and the bearing failed, I had already gotten everything together and just took off in. The biggest problem i find when pulling one are those exhaust bolts. I don't see your motor anywhere but if it's the 4.0 you might find the same thing. With the 4.0 you have to pull the forward exhaust pipe to remove the transmission, two bolts on each exhaust manifold flange, and they can be a real pain. Either a very strong impact, or a four foot cheater to break them loose. I've very fortunately never twisted one off, but that would be another problem all it's own

Ahh, i just looked at your leak photo and there is no exhaust pipe there
Did my test not determine that my clutch is engaging? i.e. in gear, idling, on a slant, truck rolls with pedal depressed? serious question

as for the bolts... i could potentially start spraying them with pb now, and i have a good impact set. I am not under my truck at the moment, what other bolts do i need to remove beside the manifold ones? i have also heard the bolts at the top of the bell housing are really hard to get to.

truck is 08 4x4 4.0. I am not over concerned with getting the transfer case off, as far as i know it is just a matter of unbolting it? I presume i need to re apply gasket maker when putting it back together.
 


Top