Intermittent crank, but no start.

[cbxer55]

Everytime this happens, I check the pressure at the schrade valve multiple times. There is absolutely no problem with fuel pressure. After I bleed the pressure off, one turn of the key and the fuel will hit the hood again.

One of my favorite roads is Anderson Road heading north. It is a steep hill, about 3/4 mile long with a 45 mph limit. I am always pushing 70 at the top. I floor it from the stop and have no trouble heading up that hill, no ping, nothing. But I am running 93 octane Sinclair fuel, as my truck does ping badly on 87 and 89. Depending on the brand, it will ping on 91 as well, although only lightly. Cause of the ping? Who knows, it has always done it since I put on the aftermarket intake, chip on the ECM, and custom exhaust. I have resigned myself to living with it because it runs so good.

This starting problem is very inconsistent. There seems to be no clue when it will happen. Except that this recent one, it only occurs after I shut it off, and while it is still warm. It seems to start just great when cold, but when warm does not.

Example: 10 minutes after getting back from last drive, it was already showing signs of difficulty but started. 30 minutes after that it was even harder to get going but still started. I just came in from trying again after two hours, and it would not start.

I will place bets it will start in the morning, no problem. So it would seem something is getting hot, and not liking it. Once it cools off it is fine.

What that something is is the key question.

 

[oachs83]

Well, Look into the Coolant temp sensor (ECT) I still think you should try the relay, also check you dont have your fuel line next to anything like the exhaust or something else that gets really hot? If so there could be a chance of fuel boiling and possibly a vapor lock? Also when you unplug the vacuum hose to the fuel pressure regulator does any gas come out? If so the regulator is bad. Another quick test off the top of my head. What if you have a leaky injector or too much fuel pressure? Activate the fuel pump shut off button and then crank the engine over a bunch to pump out any fuel that may be left in the system. Push the button back in and see if it starts?

 

[cbxer55]

I'll look into these today, if it does not rain. Looks like rain right now.

I pulled the plugs this morning, they are all ghost white. These are two outer electrode flush center eloctrode types, they do not appear worn at all.

As I expected, it fired right up this morning, first turn of the key. I am going to take it for a drive, maybe buy a fuel pressure gauge, since the white plugs are telling me the mixture is excessively lean. When I get back, and it goes into its routine of refusing to start, I will start going over things like the fuel pump relay, check the resistance of the Engine Coolant Temperature sensor, etc.

Fuel line is still in its stock location, I have never messed with it.

Again, thanks for the input.

 

[cbxer55]

Bought a fuel pressure gauge this afternoon. Just got back from store and hooked it up while still warm.

Results: Key on engine not running, 62 psi.
Key on engine running, 65 psi.

Now to let it sit for awhile and see what happens during that period of time when it refuses to start, generally about an hour.

According to my manual, both conditions should be 56 to 72 psi. So it appears that pressure is within spec. We'll see what happens in about an hour or so.

 

[Big Jim M]

Say again what plugs you have in there? You have other than the stock Motorcraft? I'd be very suspicious of them plugs..
Big JIm

 

[cbxer55]

Say again what plugs you have in there? You have other than the stock Motorcraft? I'd be very suspicious of them plugs..
Big JIm

I hear ya, but the last time I had Motorcraft, or Autolite double platinums in there, they did not last six months before the center electrodes were eaten away to nothing.

Shoot I even tried some Iridium plugs, center electrodes lasted about nine months, then the center electrodes were non-existant. Forget which side, passenger? Only one side seems to eat the plugs.

The plugs I have now have flush center electrodes, with two outer electrodes. These are the first plugs I have used that do not appear worn out after six months. But they are real white, ghost white I would say. So something is causing me a lean condition. 65 psi fuel pressure running is good. Right now it is showing 62 psi key on, engine off. That is also good.

So apparently it is not a fuel issue. BUt it still needs to sit for about an hour. It generally will not start, completely refuse to even fire after about an hour.
Yet next morning when cold it starts right up.

 

[oachs83]

Can you do a compression test? Usually if one side is lean it is do to the computer trying to componsate for something seriously wrong on the opposite side. Like bad valves, bad o2, or stuck open injector. I don't care what plugs you put in they should not be damaged like that in 6 months. Maybe you do have a stuck injector or two and it is basically fouling your plugs so bad it needs to evaporate the fuel off and then when your engine does start the plugs are burning the rest of the fuel off and coming back to life? I would almost buy 3 or 4 or all 6 plugs and when the problem happens put the plugs in and see if it fires. Again your only out about 15 bucks if the plugs are not the cause. You should only need to buy cheap plugs for this test.

 

[cbxer55]

I have a compression tester, so I can do that, although not today.
Also the plugs I have now are doing okay, not getting eaten up like the previous ones. As for one side being lean, not the case. All six plugs are ghost white. So both sides are lean. I know what color a plug should be normally, but I was always lead to believe that computer controlled fuel injected engines always run lean. I have never had a plug come out of my engine, in all the years I have had it, any other color but white or really light gray.

This problem I am now having is recent, the last two years, and does not always happen. Its been fine for the last six months. Prior to that I had the same problem that lasted about two weeks, then it went away. Tomorrow the problem may go away for a week, a month, or a year. Real head-scratcher.

Its not the pump, I have a fuel pressure gauge now. It is showing 62 psi key on, engine off. 65 psi engine running. Right square in the mid-range of the 56 to 72 the manual recommends.

Its still starting up right now, but running rough after start. It should take a little more time until it gets to the point where it refuses to fire. At that point I will run some more tests. Don't think the relay is the problem with those fuel pressures. So I need to check voltage at the injectors, and see if a test light flashes when cranking. Also I will pull the coil connector and test for voltage while cranking. If it is less than 9.7 the computer may not have enough voltage to do its thing properly.

Which still does not explain why it starts perfectly fine when cold. It only has this problem when hot, and after sitting awhile.

 

[oachs83]

OK then X that plug switch idea but you are running extremely lean. A vacuum leak in the intake would explain why it will start cold and get worse while warm as the engine warms up the parts expand just enough to start leaking. That should explain why you have a lean issue but even with a small leak like that it still should start most of the time. If it is running rough now while running spray the heck out of the engine with some starting fluid mostly around the upper and lower intake gaskets. If the RPM's pick up you have a leak. Also the relay to the fuel pump has nothing to do with pressure. It has everything to do with if your pump will work or not. If your getting 60+ lbs of pressure than it's apparent the pump is not worn but still the pump motor could be on it's way out drawing enough power to trip the relay just enough to cause it not to work for awhile but not fully break. I don't know if you have ever seen the inside of a relay but they are designed to take much more abuse than a standard fuse. A fuse gets to much voltage it will just blow. A relay can have a bend but not break attitude and if you are drawing that fine line between just enough voltage to warp and expand the relay until it cools down enough and retracts to make contact again.


When you changed the plugs to the ones you have now did you start to have this problem within a 3-4 month period?

 

[Big Jim M]

A plug that is too cold will be whitish! Take them crappy plugs out and go to FORD and thet the REAL motorcraft plugs that are intended for your engine.. NOT the auto Parts plugs. PArts houses usually don't carry the exact plug you need.. Trust me on this.
Big JIm

 

[oachs83]

A plug that is too cold will be whitish! Take them crappy plugs out and go to FORD and thet the REAL motorcraft plugs that are intended for your engine.. NOT the auto Parts plugs. PArts houses usually don't carry the exact plug you need.. Trust me on this.
Big JIm

Yes you do want to get a good quality plug but you have it backwards. A plug that is to cold will be blacker and sooty. A plug that is to hot will be white. For example if your engine calls for a NGK B8es but you use NGK B9es you are using a plug that is colder and can give you a blacker plug color. Either way you are running too lean, hot whatever you want to call it and need to address that issue.

 

[cbxer55]

A plug that is too cold will be whitish! Take them crappy plugs out and go to FORD and thet the REAL motorcraft plugs that are intended for your engine.. NOT the auto Parts plugs. PArts houses usually don't carry the exact plug you need.. Trust me on this.
Big JIm

I am running one heat range colder plug because my engine pings, bad. I have to use 93 octane gas to get it to run without ping. It just sounds something horrible on 87 or 89. It lightly pings on 91. No ping at all on 93. I know what Boss says about high octane fuel, but if you have to run it, you just have to. I will not tolerate ping at all, and 93 is what it takes to eliminate that. If I run the stock heat range plug, it pings on 93, albeit lightly.

When I was using stock heat range plugs, I was having to add some unleaded 100 octane to 93 to eliminate ping. I have yet to be able to figure what is causing this bad ping problem.

And do not tell me to take off the aftermarket intake, I love the thing and the way the truck runs with it. I took it off one time to see if the ping went away, it did not. But the truck ran like crap with the stock intake on. It runs beautifully with the 3" constant diameter tube. It has a kind of exponantial power increase as the revs rise, pulling like crazy when the revs go up and getting harder as they go. So that intake stays.

The dual exhaust in front of the right rear wheel stays due to its lovely sound. If I have to run 93 octane, so be it. My current motorcycle requires 91 or above, so says a sticker that used to be on the tank and the owners manual. If 91 is good, 93 is better.

But just what causes a vehicle designed to run 87, to require 93 to prevent ping? I have done the Seafoam thing, TWICE, did not help. My wifes 98 Taurus with the DOHC 3.0 runs great on 87, even with an aftermarket intake installed.

Its strange, before getting the Ranger, I had a 93 Toyota pickup, 4-banger. I had done the exhaust and intake on that, and it required 91 to prevent ping.

Oh well, any ideas what is causing this excessive ping? Where it pings year round, thus it cannot be the same thing that is causing this hard starting when warm as it happens infrequently and inconsistently.

Anyway, on post #8, page 1 there is a link with pictures. You can see the intake and exhaust my truck sports.

 

[oachs83]

It pings because you are lean at the least I would be stepping down to colder plugs until you get a chocolate brown color better off if you don't have a chip get one. If you do have a chip you need it reflashed. It needs to be put on a dyno and ran with atleast a EGA (exhaust gas anylizer) or you yourself should get a wideband for it. You are running lean which is hard on your engine all around.

 

[cbxer55]

I have a JET chip, but took it off when this problem started to eliminate it form the equation. It is my understanding the JET is not the best chip on the market, although when I bought it I did not know this fact. Any idea who makes the best one? I know some companies ask for certain info, like intake and exhaust when you purchase them. JET did not. It is a barebones Chip for 3.0 with auto.

As far as the white plugs, for a long time I have been running a 15 ounce can of Berrymans B-12 Chemtool cleaner just about every tankful. A Ford dealer had told me, back the first time I had this problem, that it was plugged fuel injectors. I am now doubting that, because if it was plugged injectors, it would not start the next morning when cold. So I will now commence not using that anymore.

Since Berrymans is quite a potent concoction of nasty chemicals, including methanol and acetone, it may be exacerbating a lean problem. Tomorrow I will top off the quarter tank I have now with some SInclair 93 and see what a few days of running straight fuel with no cleaner produces. It may get me gray plugs instead of white.

Heck, since I generally fill up at half tank, and constantly add 15 ounces of that stuff, there may be a larger amount than is healthy for any engine.

I'd love to be able to do a dyno tune, but one on unemployment for 11 months does not dare spend the money. I'd love to have a job too, but they are as scarce as a hens tooth at this point. Come February 2010 we may not have a house anymore, at this point. The fact that i have bad hearing form 22 years working on aircraft is not helping any either.

Anyways, so far today the truck is starting every time I try. A little rough running for the first few minutes, but cleans up and runs fine. Hopefully this is a good sign.

 

[cbxer55]

When you changed the plugs to the ones you have now did you start to have this problem within a 3-4 month period?

That could be so. It has run well since about May, with no problems. I cannot recall exactly when I put the plugs in, but sometime earlier this year seems right.

I have read that because of the way the spark works on the Vulcan engine, that the plugs on one side have a tendency to wear more than the other. One side, (passenger?) the spark goes from the outer electrode to the center. The other side, (driver?) the spark goes from center electrode to the outer. Thus the passenger side plugs tend to eat the center electrode. This is why I decided to try plugs with two outer electrodes and a flush center electrode. These are the first plugs I have put in that do not seem to be getting eaten alive, SO FAR! I have seen other threads of folks complaining of their truck eating plugs, so did not think anything untoward was happening to me.